I enjoy playing healer, primarily in m+ dungeons. I remember healers damage being bigger than it is today, and I’m curious as to why blizzard decided to change that so drastically.
I agree with the sentiment that healers should heal, not be a fourth DPS that sometimes presses a button to keep the group alive, but I’ve seen that as you go to mid level keys (10-13 in my opinion) and people actually do mechanics and use their toolkit to some extent, you’re often playing around windows of high incoming damage. During these windows you’ll be fully focused on healing, but in the downtime in between them you either focus on dealing damage or just… stand there? Considering that a healers dps is rather low (and I think it should remain low, just not THIS low) it doesn’t make much of a difference if the healer focuses on dealing as much damage as possible in between these windows, or if the healer just stays put and waits for the next damage window to be dealt with (at least up to +13 keys, I’m sure the healers damage will matter a lot more once you get up to +16 and upwards).
The reason I’d like to see healers being able to deal more damage (I suggest at the same level as tanks), is because that would raise the skill ceiling for them. The skill floor would remain the same, as you can still time keys up to the 3k rating range with healer doing the bare minimum damage, but it would incentivize healers to learn and execute a decent dps rotation too, as that would shave minutes of the timer and reduce time spent in dangerous combat situations.
Now, there’s usually arguments like “play a DPS if you want to deal more damage”, but that’s not what I want. I like the healing as it is now, and I enjoy playing a healer. I simply just wish that the skill ceiling for healers could be raised a little higher, and I’m not able to see how that would hurt the gameplay.
If you feel like this would be a good or bad idea, I’d love to hear your reasoning for it
In my opinion, tanks and healers still deal way too much damage in raids or Mythic+. A tank should have spells that generate high threat but deal significantly less damage (the fact that well-equipped and skilled tanks are doing more DPS than weaker DPS players is a misunderstanding).
Healers are basically fine, because if there’s nothing to heal, they focus entirely on DPSing, so their DPS is okay.
However, in open-world content, tanks and healers should have a damage buff so they can at least complete quests.
How do you feel at bosses such as second boss in mists? There’s basically no damage going out except for the phase where you have to find and kill the correct copy. Wouldn’t you agree that in those situations it would be a good time for a healer to focus on dealing damage?
I’m not hellbent on healers dps rotation remaining the same either, I’d be perfectly fine if resto shamans could make more use of procs and other aoe abilities thatn CL and Acid rain (healing rain).
What would you say is a proper amount of damage for a healer and tank to deal when compared to a dps? As it is right now, a tank does about 50% of a dps overall damage (again, this is only looking at m+), and a healer does maybe about 30-35%, if they all play equally well (as far as I’ve experienced).
the problem of a healer or a tank who does good damage, because the difference between a good and bad player is too big.
And blizzard does not want its game to be too elitist and difficult
Have you consider pvp as well?
Have you consider how the encounter in pve should be created with healers performing as well some role as dps ??
Shouldn’t the encounters should be fixated at a rate that dps should have an even higher requirements ?
I mean how much dps you will want ? Healers right now doing basically 10%-20% depend on class/spec in m+ and i’m talking about groups were min-max everything .
So how much will you want?? 30% 40% ?? 50%?? If you want such higher number roll a dps **
I think that healer DMG is in a pretty good place when they focus solely on DPS. However, I believe there are healers who deal too much damage when they still need to focus on healing (like the Shaman Acid Raid or Disc Priest class design with Atonement). Additionally, there are classes that have to sacrifice too much to produce the same DPS as other healers while still healing at the same time. If a DPS spends 100% of their build, time, gear, etc., on DPS, and a healer is expected to deal 50% of that DPS just out of boredom during a boss fight, it seems completely off to me (e.g., Mistweaver Monk).
When it comes to healers, there’s a huge difference when the party is good and avoids/interrupts/self-heals a lot of damage. In such cases, a good healer can produce a lot of additional DMG.
As for tanks, the situation is currently absurd (even more than the exaggerated DPS damage of Shamans). Paladins are competing with DPS in terms of DPS, and if there were no single-target bosses/minibosses in dungeons, they would often deal more damage than non-meta DPS players. Currently, tanks are doing DPS similar to DPS on AoE and healing more than healers.
The numbers I would suggest are either: doing DMG and focusing on being super squishy (10-20% of current healing done) OR being survival-focused and dealing 10% of current DMG while being truly durable. In a balanced build, this should be around 30-40% of the current values.
That is fair, but that is also the only moment you have some dps time in the whole dungeon? (and 1st boss burn-phase) I am still throwing out some tank-heals though.
Oh yeah, go take away even our AoE dps, but I’m definitely going to stop tanking in that case. The nerf to tanks from DF to TWW was already annoying enough, making us more dependant on healers, but if we even have to depend on dps for trash damage, tanks will really be nothing more than damage sponges for groups and playing that is even more unfun than what tanking has already become. We have to lead the group, survive, position mobs, interrupt like crazy etc etc. and then we aren’t even allowed to have fun doing some damage? No thanks.
I have not, I’m only talking from an m+ perspective right now.
I’d argue all m+ dungeons are created with healers performing some damage, given that you push high enough that you need that damage to beat the timer. That likely doesn’t happen for people below the 0.1% range, but I believe that their dps is important even today. I just want their dps (and therefore skill expression) to be of more importance in keys under that range.
As stated in the post, I think it would be fair to buff healer damage to tank level damage, that means if a healer (theoretically) would focus fully on damage in an aoe or single target situation, they would have very similar output as the tank. Realistically it will always be lower though, as the healer has to spend time healing too and that consumes globals that he would othervise spend dealing damage.
In a group that plays great with the current balance (tanks doing 50% the dmg of a DPS, and healers doing 30% dmg of a DPS) healers would mathematically do around 8% of the overall damage while the tank does 13% and the DPS each does roughly 26%.
If we were to buff healers to do the same level of damage as a tank and still have the group play at the same skill level, the healer (and tank) would each do about 12.5% of the overall damage, and each DPS would do 25% of the overall damage.
I don’t think that’s an unreasonable change, DPS will still be the deciding factor in the speed of the dungeon, but in low-mid keys where the dps still are struggling to reach 1.5-2M dps the healer would be able to carry to some extent by offloading the burden of time loss due to poor dps. Naturally, this would mean that the highest keys will be able to push even further, and that’s a problem I haven’t yet focused at, nor am I convinced it needs to be focused at.
I understand where you’re coming from regarding that if DPS focus entirely on dealing damage during a fight, a healer shouldn’t be able to do 50% of that out of boredom. It’s reasonable, and if I played a DPS that specialized in high damage output I’d probably also feel a bit disheartened to see a healer doing half my damage cause they’ve got nothing else to do.
I think this can be fixed by increasing the healer dps rotation difficulty, although I haven’t got a good proposal of how to that right now.
As for how you perceive tank damage I don’t agree though, if a tank competes with the damage of a DPS, it’s either cause it’s an AOE pull where tank popped offensive cooldowns and DPS didn’t, or the DPS is just plain bad. They do heal more than healers when they’re the only ones taking damage though, but if that number bothers people to much they could always just bake that healing into passive defense instead. Although that would lower the skill ceiling quite a bit.
I feel as if this thread is about to become more about tanks and their damage output now though, which wasn’t why I created this thread. It’s a good topic that I’d happily discuss, but please open another thread for it and we can discuss it there instead. Lets keep this about healers and their damage.
Whilst I do agree that it would be a devastating change for tanks, let’s refrain from discussing that here as they are off-topic. I’d be happy to discuss it with you if you made a thread about it.
This thread is for discussing healers damage output (in m+).
Let me give you an example: Necrotic Wake +10. Currently, the top 100 tank in DPS (obviously a paladin) did 1,386,295.6 overall DPS. The top 100 shadow priest did 1,627,399.4, the top 100 affliction warlock did 1,597,261.3, and the sub rogue did 1,441,894.8. These are also DPS players, and if they reach top 100 damage with their class and spec, they probably know they need to use offensive cooldowns.
I’m not talking about meta classes where the top players deal 50% more damage than non-meta classes, but about other classes that are also playable. Do you think it’s normal and healthy that tanks deal overall damage almost the same as DPS while still having higher healing done than healers?
In the case of healers, fortunately, it’s not as noticeable. The top 100 DPS there is 711,871.4 (obviously MW monk), and that’s roughly where tanks should be. I’m happy you agreed with me that it’s won’t be possible that bored healer will do like 50% dmg of fully focused DPS
Tank primary focus is to have threat of npc and in order to do that have tool that increase threat by xx% that works with the dmg done .
If the tank doesn’t hold the threat by doing very little dmg you will see something like classic wow where dps are running from npcs…
Fair enough ,improve the mana usage of dps spells so if they wanna dps = mana lacking for heal.
My shaman chain lighting cost 5k mana … make it 50k mana or like the chain heal=126k mana (i have 2.5 million mana …how % is the 5000 mana ??? ) . Basically you are using free dps spells .
The same with Lighting bolt … and all dps abilities .
Healing abilities start cost at 40k and 50k mana and some reaching 165k mana while dps cost 5k ??
Then you will see how the resource are used .
Basically as a healer your using dps with free resources … (Imagine my aimed shot from 35 focus would cost 5 focus and from 9.5 second cd will go to 2 second cd …would break the gameplay ).
I’m not seeing any logs, so I don’t know if they were even in the same group. If they were in the same group then yes, it’s atrocious and the damage of paladin either needs to be nerfed, or the damage of those DPS specs needs to be brought up.
If they weren’t in the same group, they didn’t necessarily do the same pulls, clear the dungeon in the same tempo, and therefore didn’t get comparable results. Whilst I get your point, I’m not convinced that this is a great comparison.
However, this is another debate. One I’d prefer not to take in this thread.
That doesn’t seem like a bad idea at all to me at first glance, though I guess it needs some tweaking for classes that heal through DPS (mistweaver, disc, and to some extent holy paladin). If tanks (paladin) have to spend a ton of mana to heal, I think it would be fair for healers to spend a ton of mana to focus heavily into damage. I’m sure I’m missing stuff as to why this would/wouldn’t work, but as of right now this is something I can definitely see myself support.
Well yes, all healers are currently able to contribute “some” damage. I just believe that they should be able to contribute more. To be more specific, I think certain healers should definitely be able to contribute more, if you compare the damage in a scenario of mixed single target and AoE of a fully damage focused MW monk to a fully damage focused resto shaman we’ll see that they’re nowhere near each other, which I believe should be adjusted.
I think healers should - potentially - do exactly as much damage (or only insignificantly less) than DPS; if they would do nothing else but damage. It doesn’t make sense that a caster’s dps spells (especially if those are the same ones in both specs) suddenly grow weaker just because they have also learned some healing spells. Healer DPS is already reduced by them having to cast heals to keep others alive instead of damage spells and “lose” gcds that way.
From an immersion perspective and gameplaywise, it would make more sense if healers did full damage; easier to go through the open world like that… I can accept healers doing a bit less damage than dps from a lore perspective, as they have probably neglected practicing damage spells in favor of training healing spells, but that shouldn’t result in a healer doing their full dps rotation doing only 30% (or even less) of a dps’s damage.
I don’t think they are that far away from each other? The only thing is the mistweaver is already doing his normal damage abilities since he is healing by that while the shaman needs to stop healing to utilize it.