´https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e9bMHDHMJ6ZLBPM6Mdzbo2´
There is a sim who proves the % at less for that class. Idk why items do not show but are the same items with different ilvl.
I really appreciate you basing your arguments in factual numbers.
However, remember to account for kill time, PI, stat distribution, sockets and weapon ilvl. Also even good players don’t play alts optimally. A parse made by a ilvl 200 hunter on April 2nd is most likely someone playing an alt.
The only way to make most of that factors constant is with sims. And on sims is 1% per 1 ilvl.
It’s not accurate, you are are misunderstanding how to properly use simcraft, no worries, lots of beginners makes this mistake. Simcraft does not tell you how much dps you should be doing, unless your endgame is hitting target dummy for 500 seconds.
And that is THE REALITY of comparing people with different gear. Guy with 200 does not have access to all that shiny stuff mythic/high pvp players get, he plays less, he has less. Comparing your own gear to the same gear but less ilvl is completely irrelevant and “out of touch”.
Which does not happen for the same as reason as above stated. 200 dude has way less options to get. If he had opportunity, he would be rolling in 226 by now.
Now for some little lesson of how to properly use simcraft.
Simcraft does not work at all without proper APL (action priority list), this is example of how hunter mm APL looks like:
simc/T26_Hunter_Marksmanship.simc at shadowlands · simulationcraft/simc (github.com)
This APL was written manually, and its basically a rotation code for specs. Like the name suggests action priority list.
So the first and foremost usage of simcraft is making a proper theorycrafted rotation. By changing priority you can see what dps you would be doing if for example, you would use rapid fire regardless of anything (put it higher in priority). Simcraft was used primarily as theorycrafting tool.
Now the second usage is (once you have APL figured out) is to check stat weight distribution. Basically calculating which is the most important secondary stat. Once you have that, you can roughly say what is theoretically the best possible gear you can get. That also opens up the possiblity to check if piece that just dropped is upgrade or not (thanks to raidbots which made it lot easier)
Next usage is checking talents, sometimes you have to make adjustments in APL to account for that, like for example this line:
actions.st=steady_shot,if=talent.steady_focus&(prev_gcd.1.steady_shot&buff.steady_focus.remains<5|buff.steady_focus.down)
Which roughly means
Use steady shot
IF steady focus talent is enabled AND
(
your previous skill was steady shot AND buff steady focus expires in less than 5s
OR
you dont have steady focus buff at all
)
Checking how much dps you would be doing in exact same gear but 200 ilvl is meaningless because it’s definition of synthetic test that is
not applicable in reality
thank you and good night
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No, Ion said it would be 1% on theory and is 1% if you sim.
The number of Pi, fight length are external factors.
It may not fit the player’s reality but on the same conditions without random factor is 1% per ilvl.
True. But you can still use it as a Benchmark for comparing similar characters. The simulations still tell you something about capacity.
Your comparison is horrible.
1 the people you compare don’t have the same stat distribution.
2. You don’t have the same fight lengths
3. You don’t have the same externals (PI)
4. You don’t look at what mechanics each had to do.
Your comparison is useless, it shows nothing.
You said there’s no skill, I was just wondering what that implies, yet you’re saying something completely different now.
Whether the external factors are relevant or not in reality is, ironically, not relevant to this particular argument.
Ion was talking about theoretical power gains in a vacuum, with no external factors.
raw numbers are irrelevant unless you are doing literally theorycrafting which is basically:
Shouldn’t this spell be used as higher priority?
How much does this talent do?
Its basically checking if the number goes up once you fiddle around with APL or gear. It’s purely synthetic test.
Lots of people take voice about how to use simcraft while they are unable to even read APL.
Frankly once you bring up other factors than raw ilvl the discussion shifts from
‘Is it fair that ilvl provides X much of a damage boost?’
and more towards
‘why does this game have so many external factors besides raw ilvl and is it possible to make all of those matter less individually?’
Personally? I’m not really sure I have an answer to that last question, but I can’t say I’d be too thrilled to see secondary stats neutered any more than they already are.
I don’t think they streamlined scaling for every class.
I mean I don’t really want to check it up but we always had classes scale differently, so I doubt it is a 26% increase for everyone
Simcraft exactly tells you how much DPS you’re capable of doing if hitting a target dummy for 5 mins, removing the luck factor as well. Which is the power gain Ion talked about.
You don’t balance items around different skill levels / access to different resources. Imagine if your mythic chestpiece would give you -30 primary because you got PI. Even more funny, you have a slider how skilled you are, and if you set it high, you get -10% dmg. Like what? 1 item level higher gear gives you ~1% increase in output nothing to do with the things you mentioned.
You need a lesson in measuring things mate. Imagine talking about raw output differences between gears, and factoring in friends for PI, skill level of the player and whatnot. At the end, if you take all these into consideration you might get the result that a higher level item is actually a DPS loss, because your priest friend now hates you so won’t give you PI. How stupid is that?
Why is that relevant to the topic again?
Go to school please, study for chemistry or physics and see how scientists measure things. You want to create an environment that is separate from the “real”, so you can have the same exact circumstances, and you actually measure the thing you want and not the environment.
Some are 23 others 28. But is not 60% like people say.
Will be arround 20 to 30% from 200 to 226 on single target raw dps without external factors.
Because ilvl itself is not definitive indication of how much dps you would be doing.
Ion is talking about “Skill issue”
BUT THE SKILL does not exist in synthetic tests. It’s always perfect.
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Even if the APL changes a little it’s not going to make a big difference from what the simulation comparison shows in most cases. It’s a very decent benchmark.
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solo from sims maybe, but if you factor in real playing you might see differences bigger than actually 20-30%.
But it is whatever. For pve nobody even cares. Power creep in pvp is a bigger deal than pve
I know but people are complaining that Ion lied.
Who is wrong if you do all perfect is the 26% with external factors it changes.
But that’s usually due to other factors than ilvl (in PVE).
2 Likes
It’s not, and I don’t think anyone said it is. But it’s also not the reason X person does, to quote preach when he asked the question, ‘multiple times’ less damage than mythic raiders.
Stepping back from theory, I understand why people are angry ion said what he said. He’s not wrong given the specifics of the question he was asked, but to a lot of people watching it feels like he ignored the wider issue of power disparity from things outside of player performance.
That’s a much bigger, much more complicated question though, and I’m not even sure what I’d want to hear as an answer.
1 Like