Is m+ dead?

[Rolannd-aggramar]

@Angmár-draenor

Its friday night and literally no one is applying for my mists +8 key??? wtf is going on??

Its

Tank class balance prot paladins not working

Dungeon Pool being not addressed Grim batol is overtuned still dragon one shotting tanks.

class balance is still unbalanced and blizzard sits back letting prot paladins half the class dps speccs being trahs whole season meanwhile monks and mages and other classes is rocking with many blinks slows and interrupts that other classes dont have.

but mythic + is outdate it doesnt build and mmorpg feel i rather remove timer let the scaleing be the difficultie instead like delvs.

One thing classic wrath did right they had m+ but without the timers.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

Without showing the number of M+ runs all week ( and even that one wouldn’t be accurate because people might just decide not to run keys that week ) how in the world can you tell if someone rerolled from Havoc to Vengeance?

https://mythicstats.com/dps

Here. With runs per week. And overall statistics.

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

Playing this game for 20 years and knowing that it’s very rare for someone who played DPS for years to decide to main tank.

I decided to roll healer in BFA. Was warrior DD since 2005. And I know plenty of people that had similar changes.

So your personal experience vs. mine. Except that I got data to back me up, you dont.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

Except that I got data to back me up, you dont.

Your data doesn’t show that Bob rerolled from Havoc to Vengeance.

If Havoc has 500 runs Week 1 450 Runs Week 2 and Vengeance has 500 Runs Week 1 550 Runs Week 2 you can’t just assume the Havocs rerolled. For all you know they stopped playing and people ran Vengeance keys on their alts or they rerolled from Tank Warrior to Tank DH.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

Your data doesn’t show that Bob rerolled from Havoc to Vengeance.

Neither does your made up statement. I can at-least claim a very convenient coincidence that DH DD player # + DH tank player # is constant through most of DF (except S2 Exodia).

If DH DDs ALL rerolled some other DD, you would not see that.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

I can at-least claim a very convenient coincidence that DH DD player # + DH tank player # is constant through most of DF (except S2 Exodia).

But there’s no proof the DD rerolled Tank, that could just be someone running Vengeance on their alt or rerolling their old tank into it.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

But there’s no proof the DD rerolled Tank, that could just be someone running Vengeance on their alt or rerolling their old tank into it.

You also dont have proof that the tank is an alt of a DD.

But still. I have a coincidence. Still more than what you have.

You ONLY have “but I thing this and that”…

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

But still. I have a coincidence. Still more than what you have.

That’s just you trying to confirm your narrative. I can just as easily say Havocs went down because they unsubbed when their class got crappier.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

That’s just you trying to confirm your narrative. I can just as easily say Havocs went down because they unsubbed when their class got crappier.

No. Im not confirming my narrative. All I am saying is that I got numbers. And you saying my numbers are squat compared to your personal view.

I digress. Data >>>> Opinion. Simple as that.

If you want your narrative to be on equal grounds, produce some data. If you cant, then you are not on equal grounds.

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

That’s just you trying to confirm your narrative. I can just as easily say Havocs went down because they unsubbed when their class got crappier.

You can say that. But then where did all the DH tanks come from ? People that re-subed because DH tank was meta or what ?

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

All I am saying is that I got numbers.

Sure, but your numbers don’t support your narrative. If anything they support mine.

DF S4 Week 1, 33% Vengeance 3% Havoc
DF S4 Week 2, 44% Vengeance 2% Havoc
DF S4 Week 5, 52% vengeance <1% Havoc

If the growth was mainly caused by Havocs rerolling, that number isn’t growing fast enough. Vengeance went from 33% to 52% in a month and Havoc from 3% to <1%, there weren’t that many Havocs to cause that surge for Vengeance.

@Uda-uldum

But then where did all the DH tanks come from ?

Other class tanks who didn’t want to play an underpowered spec lmao.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

If the growth was caused by Havocs rerolling that number would be way higher.

You clearly did not get my point.

You DONT want a party with 1 DH tank and 1 DD tank. In fact, you dont want parties with double classes because you loose out on buffs. In fact, IF the meta is Caster heavy (AKA mages/warlocks…) you ABSOLUTELY want a DH in your party for the extra 3% damage.

HOWEVER, when DH tank is meta, nobody wants a DD DH. Because Chaos Brand is given by the tank. And vice versa.

So my argument of : Well Havoc is not meta … Against WHO ? Other DPS ? Rets ? Warriors ?

Maybe. But it depends as well if DH TANK is meta or not.

And currently DH tank IS meta. So in high keys NOBODY wants (let me underline that for you HIGH KEYS) a DD DH. They want a DH tank.

In other words to make it even clearer : In an ideal world, if YOU do EXACTLY the same damage, with EXACTLY the same utility as ALL other DPS…

Mages STILL have an advantage over you. Because if DH TANKS are meta, they will be chosen over DD DH.

THAT is how the meta works. And that is why you compete with DH tanks. And that is why you see the numbers you see there.

GET IT !

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

HOWEVER, when DH tank is meta, nobody wants a DD DH. Because Chaos Brand is given by the tank

It’s not tho

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

It’s not tho

Its what the DATA on the META shows.

And THAT has absolutely no ambiguity to it. ZERO.

[Elsiriana-daggerspine]

@Cowfefe-silvermoon

Tanking:

Tanks have had their self-healing gutted. We’re now forced to rely on healers, but who are the healers supposed to rely on? Oh right, this is about tanking. So let’s start with the fact that tanks are apparently never allowed to choose their own route. You’re expected to apologize in advance because whatever path you take will inevitably be wrong for DPS. And, of course, you must submit your route for approval by the all-important DPS before the run even begins to get an acceptance from “DPS”.

Tanks are still Great on Selfhealing.

@Cowfefe-silvermoon

The State of M+:

I used to play healer all the time, and occasionally tank. But Blizzard has ruined both roles with The War Within. Healing is never enough now, no matter how hard you try, and the added responsibilities make it feel more like a punishment than a role. Tanking has become downright miserable. There’s no fun left in either role.

And why would I put myself through this? To be screamed at by strangers in a toxic environment? Why would I sign up for this circus? Unless Blizzard can provide a good explanation, I have no reason to queue up for this mess again.

the Roles are fine people, i dont see any problems with it.

@Cowfefe-silvermoon

Toxicity:

The community has become more toxic than ever. Blizzard seems to have turned a blind eye, but it’s starting to feel no different than games from Riot. The level of disrespect and hostility has reached new lows. Just recently, someone wished a slow, painful death upon my parents simply because their key was depleted. This same player barely interrupted, dodged no mechanics, and never used a defensive cooldown, yet constantly whined about not getting healed. I used the Elitism Helper add-on that tracks, records avoidable damage, and also announces it in chat. This player was hit by practically every avoidable mechanic, but none of that mattered—it was all “heal heal heal” from this person’s side.

Blizzard has ruined yet another part of the game for me. At this rate, they’re going to push me away completely after 20 years of playing.

the toxicity isnt really bad the problem is u have alot of players that just comes unprepared. or they Dont have a clue what they are doing i see that alot. i can see who does M+ alot and who is just there to do a key.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

Its what the DATA on the META shows.

Yeah, if you took more than a minute to look at that graph, you would see some stuff like:

S4 Week 1: Havoc: 3% Vengeance: 33%
S4 Last Week: Havoc: 2.5% Vengeance: 88%

So not only does this suggest that Havocs didn’t reroll Vengeance, it also suggests that Havocs and Vengeance coexist just fine. Also that the Vengeance players were tank rerolls.

Also idk if you’re clear on that or not, but only Havoc has Chaos Brand in War Within. IDK if Vengeance had it in Dragonflight, but they definitely don’t have it now.

[Annaconda-ragnaros]

Tbh DPS will always be cherry picked based on some arbitrary criteria simply because there’s too many of them compared to other roles…

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Annaconda-ragnaros

Tbh DPS will always be cherry picked based on some arbitrary criteria simply because there’s too many of them compared to other roles…

Yes but you can still bridge the balance gap between them. Let me give you an example, even if Havoc would do the same DPS as Warrior, Havoc right now has to use its mobility ( Fel Rush, Vengeful Retreat ) to achieve that DPS. Which means we’re severely limited on fights like Erudax or the Boralus Kraken or the water Giant where we can’t dash around. The result is our DPS is much smaller on those fights. And when it isn’t, we trade our mobility to do the same DPS other classes achieve without doing that.

So at the very least they could buff out those weaknesses.

[Uda-uldum]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

Also idk if you’re clear on that or not, but only Havoc has Chaos Brand in War Within. IDK if Vengeance had it in Dragonflight, but they definitely don’t have it now.

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/demon-hunter/vengeance/overview-pve-tank

And I quote :

[Vengeance DH] Brings Chaos Brand, a debuff increasing magical damage taken that is provided only by Demon Hunters,

DH tanks have Chaos Brand. Did not change.

But either way. All this as an excuse to not do GB5 and claim you “deserve” to do 8s.

I will walk out from this pointless discussion. Keep whining. Im sure that is productive.

[Kelduril-argent-dawn (Kelduril)]

@Uda-uldum

I will walk out from this pointless discussion

I’m glad you at least acknowledged you were wrong on that " Havoc DHs just rerolled Vengeance " nonsense.

@Uda-uldum

Keep whining. Im sure that is productive.

Change is made by demanding what you want. If people didn’t ‘‘whine’’ as you so eloquently put it, then you’d still be playing 2004 WoW where Shaman only had 1 role in competitive content, i.e. Healing.

And I’ve already done 8s.

[Cunix-turalyon]

Well again biggest reason is just simple make the crest change back to df.

Weathered Harbringer Crest: Keep them where they at.
Carved Harbringer Crest: Make them from mythic 0 + Normal raid.
Runed Harbringer Crest: Make them +2-5 keys + Heroic raid.
Gilded Harbringer Crest: Make them +6 and above + Mythic raid.

That way it atleast make sense to do keys between +6-8

[Stormblaze-genjuros]

@Kelduril-argent-dawn

Mages being 5 times more commonly seen in high keys

Me as a Hunter waiting for Season 2 to see some changes and watching some series while Afking
614 ilvl declined in M+3… Scr… this:D