Having all character being peace-obsessed goody ones, which usually is interpreted by boring authors as “lawful stupid”, does not look to me like neither evolution, nor a good story.
Especially not in the game where regularly devs come out and say “oh, factions are the core”, but do not tell the story about why it’s good to keep them. Seems like the most boring story ever.
gl hf
I’d rather see characters like Wrathion who understand their past mistakes and evolve naturally throughout several expansions than good ones who become evil because of a mind control, corruption due to whatever force or because they’re power hungry. The worst being the villains without true motives or those who share the exact same goal without being on the same team, because it doesn’t bring anything new or interesting to the table.
I’d agree with you if the villains of WoW weren’t always so poorly written, but they have no additional depth that could make them more interesting than the good guys in my opinion. And when I say villains, it also includes the minor ones we encounter in smaller quests in game, not only the big threats that we have to fight during each expansion
Those are not the only possibilities in the universe (be it in-game or irl).
It’s not just the villains’ destiny unfortunately.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not trying to say “you’re wrong for feeling the way you do”. If you like it - cool, god bless you.
Just that I see no point in this direction. It’s like the devs have 1 idea of what is right™ and they suffocate everything else to twist it into fitting their views.
To me it would be more interesting if the old idea about WoW (“they are destined for war”) would pay off. And the entity that corrupted shu’halo and taught the tauren “war” was Azeroth, the entity to which the players are bound (sustained by her life force)
© https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/804763881351282748/847837982446321724/image0.jpg Algalon image
Perhaps, one day, when we get the narrators who actually care about the game world, it’s back-story and the player experience over personal biases.
Oh well.
gl hf
What other possibilities has Blizzard given us until now?
I honestly can’t stand these corruption plot lines anymore and would definitely hate it if turned that way. ‘Eyes of the Earth Mother’ implies that it was the Old Gods who corrupted the Taurens, it’s in ‘Folk & Fairytales of Azeroth’ if you’re interested
I don’t think it’s a matter of being right or wrong either, just different perspectives. I feel like most players of WoW are over 20 and deserve a story and characters deeper than those of a kids show. Meaning that I’d rather see characters turning good, bad or grey because of what they’ve been through, not because of an evil entity that’s evil for the sake of being evil
If you limit just to what blizz does, we have at least somewhat successful “anti-hero” in Illidan, we have who knows how Azshara will turn out. Not sure where to put Medivh currently, but he’s neither here nor there.
Still something extra, but yeah, the choices are few and far between in the last 5-ish expansions.
It would not make her corrupted. According to Chronicles Azeroth remained uncorrupted in the days of the Black Empire. The war just might be her nature or necessity.
It’s an odd story, we’ll see where it goes. The process itself reminded me a lot the ordering. Given what is known about the world-souls from the Chronicles and A Thousand Years of War, Earth Mother might not be Azeroth.
I feel like we’d need a different narrative team for that. Sadly the current one if fast and loose, and eager for retcons to push their story.
It’s not so much about characters like Wrathion, but more just the curiousity about what would our character turn out to be. The PC is tied to Azeroth, so if she is not a nice goody person for all good against all bad, saying “no” is not possible anyway. Could be something interesting. But… the less the current team touches Azeroth as a person, the better it would be IMO.
gl hf
Illidan who became crazy for no reason during BC, that we had to kill at the Black Temple because he was crazy and evil, and bring back during Legion in which he did a complete 180 with no prior development explaining the sudden change. Illidan wasn’t known to be a philosopher, but an impulsive character jealous of his brother, ready to do anything to show that he was better than him, overconfident and reckless. His personality in Legion didn’t align with the one he had before since there was no transition. Wrathion, on the other hand, had an in game journal detailing his journey, a scenario showing how different he was from Deathwing and all the interactions we had with him later on showed us how much he had matured.
Like you said, we don’t know what Blizzard will do with Azshara so I can’t put her in the box of the ‘different characters’ yet. Up until Ny’alotha, she was only an arrogant, powerful and greedy sorceress queen who allied with the players at the very end when she had no other choice. Her saying that she’ll go back to the true siege of power (or something like that, I can’t remember the full quote) shows that she’s still power hungry, I don’t see any real change yet. The fact that she had been plotting to kill N’Zoth for 10 000 years doesn’t make her a complex character in my opinion.
Medivh, one of the first characters of the story who did bad things because of the mind control Sargeras used on him? I think I already know in what box he fits
Why though?
Never said that the Earth Mother was Azeroth, that’s not what the tale says. She’s the mother of Mu’sha, An’she and Lo’sho, and she went to Azeroth to help with the development of the world
Exactly, and we can’t take anything for granted because of their mindset. The Chronicles series was supposed to be an encyclopedia for Azeroth, Draenor and the general notions of the universe of Warcraft. But what did the devs say when they realized that some things could be wrong with it? That they were written from the point of view of the Titans. How fitting. And now, every book supposed to give us background lore informations are written from the point of view of various characters, not an all-knowing narrator because it makes retcons easier
I agree on that too
You can always blame it on the Frostmourne nowadays. A part of his soul got to the ally of the Jailer after all.
I mean, if we assume a possiblity, that his “human” side was absorbed / damaged, and the demon one flourished - everything would fit the current iteration of the backstory.
I mean, I’d prefer him dead. But the fact is, I saw a lot of people saying that they liked Illidan. I do not, but if a sizeable part of the community likes it, whatever.
The usual story with blizz. But you wanted me to pick something from their stuff. And a bunch of players seemingly did like him, so 
He literally is drowned in the void magic. When he opens portals he is not that far in “blue-ness” from Alleria in her emo-form. Not to mention that we collect on his request the books detailing what the cultists do and believe in.
We mostly know her story from the PoV of those who fought against her. And she had many other mysteries around her. After all, she was the most devoted follower of Elune. Up until one day she did a 180 and suddenly started the conquest across the known lands. Not to mention that somehow elves collected Pillars of Creation that should’ve been in hands of the keepers / titan-forged at the time. And used them (if the image in the Cathedral of Eternal Night is true) against some dragons too.
It’s a murky story.
She is arrogant, but strong enough to back it up.
Queen Azshara says: Now go and do what you will. I tire of intermediaries and heralds. The true throne of power beckons, and I intend to claim it.
What other options does she have with such reputation? I would not mind of to have a “secret” quest line where the players work with her while other leaders are not aware of the thing, but not sure how likely such cooperations are.
No, most WoW characters are so-so. But she stands out and was a nice character to interact with. Jealous that the chosen of N’Zoth are the players, but it’s not a big of a deal.
Currently - not sure. There was an old-ish quote from the Last Guardian, which belonged to Sargeras.
You see, I am nothing but one more component in the great machine, one that has been running since the Well of Eternity was first shattered. The one thing that the original bits of Medivh and myself agree on is that this cycle needs to be shattered. Of course, I assure you, we are of one mind.
So, while goals and reasons might be different, interest of Medivh might be the same as of the Jailer with the whole “unmake the cycle” idea. Methods and goals not the same, but the implications could’ve been interesting. In a different story. Not sure what we’ll get though.
Whatever people could imagine.
Improvisation: Azeroth is the strongest titan. Anima is a potens source of power. She might be the strongest because of the flow of anima. Say, she empowers some “chosen” characters by her life force, and in return gains some especially potent anima.
Thus if there is peace - this flow is small. Hence she might become way weaker and opposing forces creatures acting in interests of the cosmological forces could defeat her and stay / enslave us all. Hence pro-peace movement is a path to apocalypse.
Of course, that just a random thoughts without polish, editing, and fancy phrases. I am sure there are many more ways to establish not traditional rules within the Warcraft universe.
It’s just a common interpretation of the tauren mythos.
Not sure the pantheon helped much. Might be the opposite. She Earth mother maybe got some benefits from the place, but I am not sure if those are “healthy” relationships or she is as much of a “parasyte” on the Azeroth power as Old Gods, if not more so.
gl hf
But it made me remember that there is an Illidari soul in the Gorgoa that says ‘The Master Illidan will show us the way’, which doesn’t make sense because Illidari have demon souls and they’re supposed to go back to the Twisting Nether, not the Shadowlands
What did we get back from Helya then?
I can understand why some people wouldn’t want a character they like to die, but Blizzard kept him alive in such a cringy way, I don’t see any satisfaction in it. It’s like they chose to keep both Sargeras and Illidan alive so they could use them again in another expansion when they run out of ideas.
When I like a character, all I want for them is to have a nice story with a proper end. I really love Sylvanas, but I hope she’ll finally die in a meaningful way and that she won’t be used again in the story but I feel like that’s not going to happen. They’ll find a way to make her make some cameos and crappy stuff in the future, I’m sure of it.
Illidan, Sylvanas, Tyrande, Jaina, Maiev, Malfurion, Uther, Turalyon, Alleria… so many characters that come from the RTS and take too much space in the story to let new characters blossom. But it’s a different conversation.
True
And like you said it with this example, he controls it just like Alleria does. Understanding the Void and being able to use its energy doesn’t mean you work for the Void Lords or the Old Gods
Are you sure about that? From what I recall, she didn’t like the fact that a part of her people seemed to adore Elune more than they adored her. It’s mentioned briefly in the Chronicles. And from what we’ve seen, the most devoted follower of Elune has always been Tyrande.
She’s definitely strong, but still in the villain box. There’s no depth to this character yet, only things left unsaid
Thank you!
If she only seeks this throne of power because of her greed that hasn’t changed in over 10 000 years, I have no reason to not count her as a basic power hungry villain
I’m looking at her overall and she doesn’t stand out more to me. I understand that she’s charismatic, but that’s basically it.
We won’t
But that’s not what is said in the tale, so I was confused by your comment
The Earth Mother isn’t part of the Pantheon of Order. She could be a First One or just a Tauren legend, but not a Titan
That’s what I mean, she is the ally of the Jailer. How could she get a part of his soul? Maybe that could’ve been a part touched by Frostmourne.
Well, that’s how I imagine those plot points could’ve been connected.
When I look at the story, I do not see the current devs ever developing a new character that would be comparable in perception on the players to the older ones, created by the people who started that all lore thing. Be it Bwonsamdi who we met before BfA too, or Sargeras, or Azshara - all been for a while.
So, they seem to always try to keep this “backup” option there but at the same time they twist the familiar themes and characters which IMO makes the situation also bad.
Besides, the dev team seems to be horrified of finishing stories. It a cliffhanger after cliffhanger. And in the end usually just disappointment at the “sudden reveal”. “You’ll never guess who burned Teldrassil!” Only to reveal then the most boring choice with the most annoying development after.
I would prefer them to leave old characters as side ones and focus on the new roster. Because what they do with Sylvanas, Tyrande, etc. is… well, you know well enough.
(However, I do not think character driven story would be good for the game to begin with, but it’s just IMO)
Yeah, I’ve seen an alternative opinion about that:
Xal’atath: The caterpillar has become the butterfly. She is all but ours now. (after L’ura’s defeat, when Alleria absorbs her power)
He flaunts his defiance of the shadows. Arrogance will be his undoing. (at Locus-Walker)
If Wrathion controlls the Void as these 2, that might mean something else that could happen.
There is a statue of her in the Temple which is now the Tomb of Sargeras, where she is depicted like one of priestesses
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/8ch4yv/peaceful_view_of_tomb_of_sargeras/
She was called among other things “Light of the Moon”, “Light of a Thousand Moons”, “Flower of the Moon”, etc. Supposedly she was walking next to the Well of Eternity and talking to Elune (who knows how canon those Knaak novels are nowadays).
Something did happen right around her coronation, that changed her actions a lot. But it’s not clear what. There was a mention in “Darkest Night” quest by Maiev:
Maiev Shadowsong says: None who have attempted the ritual since then have survived. Elune’s raw power tears them apart.
Who could’ve survived the thing? I mean, for a while Azshara did not leave the palace anymore. She destroyed the Tidestone without walking out. She even has a phase of the boss fight called “my palace is a prison”.
I mean, there could’ve been an interesting story. Will the current dev team pull it off though? Not sure.
We cured Algalon’s approach by kicking. Maybe now she’s nice and eager to meet us again.
She could be. She was one of few thing good around BfA IMO, so I just hope some better storytellers would take care of the character. I mean, she is not something everyone would like, but I could imagine a charismatic leader who had devoted followers not just because of magic charm / fear.
I do struggle occasionally to be clear, sorry about that.
She could get some benefit from their actions. (My conspiracy theory that Elune is the Earth Mother, but who knows how likely something like that would be; because of the way she contacted “from below” the followers, and Elune was speakin through the Well / moonwells)
gl hf
It does make sense, I never thought about it that way
I do think that they did a great job with Varian who didn’t exist before WoW. I know that everyone might not share this opinion, but I also like the development of Anduin.
True, it’s like they’re afraid that ending a side story would be the end of WoW or something.
Exactly, like I have been surprised by none of the revelations made during 9.0 and what’s been implemented in the 9.1 on the PTR. The excitement is long gone
Yeah, reusing the same characters over and over again always leads to retcons. I understand what you’re saying about how a character driven story isn’t the best option for the game, but since I play to follow their stories and experience them I do like it that way. That being said, I wish that the content of the extended universe and what we see in the game formed a more cohesive set instead of parallel stories
We’ll see, the real battle against the Void and the Light hasn’t begun yet
Oh I never paid attention to it, thank you!
I don’t know either if Knaak’s novels are all still canon, but this idea of Azshara being devoted to Elune clashes with what has been established in the Chronicles. Yet another retcon I guess
From what we see in the quests, none of the previous Night Warriors has survived the ritual, they all ended up dying soon after using it. Tyrande is the one who withheld it the longest, I don’t think Azshara could have used this power with no consequence no matter how powerful she originally is
Don’t get me wrong, I do like Azshara too and was happy to finally discover the ruins of Zin’azshari in BFA, what I’m pointing out is how the character is presented by Blizzard
No worries, I’m the last person who could blame anyone for that
I should read the Night Elven tale about the moon to see if there is any additional information worth noting, but I still think that Elune and the Earth Mother are two separate entities
Varian is a meta-problem. Because before him the story was more about exploration of the world, rather that “look at that character”. Plus “high king” is a plague in the narrative IMO.
So, while the character itself as a concept is fine, what happened around him IMO cause more harm than good.
It’s kind of like WotLK. An expansion with a lot of praise and good memories. Yet the one who gave us “only the last patch matters” with TotC patch, LFG, chopped away “natural” ways of progression from soloable easy content to the group one, and undermined local communities as a result of changes to loot, the way it was obtainable, and requirements on cooperation.
Sure thing. I think there are ways to use the character stories as “windows” into the world itself.
When I started playing the motivation for me was to see how the world changed since the RTS days. So, to me Azeroth is the main character. How thing change, cultures, how different races provide different perspectives on the events.
Probably both approaches could be mixed to a degree, to enhance each other.
Possible. At the same time, I did not use the term until recently and when I looked up the definition it was just
a piece of new information given in a film, television series, etc. that changes, or gives a different way of understanding, what has gone before.
© https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/retcon
I guess any new info about old events might be a retcon, just that some lead to confusion and contradictions, while others do not.
I can’t quite tell how those views would combine together, I guess, I’d have to take a closer look someday.
How would it fit the “since then” part though 
Unless it won’t… which is, sadly, also possible.
If not the voice actress, I feel like the experience would not be as good. BfA treated her story… not too well.
But it did not do much stuff well in general.
What made me think about it:
(plus, Magni talks about “song” when it comes to him talking to Azeroth. Like, we’ve seen titans. The do not sing. Not even close. Wind-chimes though… who might be connected to a certain mysterious entity, always do)
But that’s just some random thoughts.
gl hf
The High King status is indeed a problem, since the Alliance is supposed to have a different political system than the Horde. A High King is basically a Warchief, but in the Alliance every racial leader is supposed to matter since this faction was some sort of council (which is what the Horde recently became, ironically)
I was a very casual player from mid-WotLK until MoP, then I stopped playing for five or six years and came back around the end of 8.1. I didn’t see the game evolve the same way you did, so I wouldn’t know, but I guess that the gameplay changes had an impact on the story’s development
I understand your perspective better now, it’s an interesting one 
I think it won’t but who knows
I play in French and I love her voice actress, she did add another layer of flavour to Azshara that not all voice actresses could have. The French voice actress of Sylvanas is amazing too, I actually like her more than Patty Mattson although she’s fantastic too
It would be easier if Elune’s story didn’t keep changing. I wonder if the devs knew what she was or what to do with her before Shadowlands because it’s still confusing. We will learn more about her in this expansion so our questions will probably be answered, but I dread it a bit.
The Winter Queen calls her sister and it doesn’t sit right with me. I can’t believe that the writers decided to make the only true goddess of this universe a simple sister of some sort of Titan 
True. It seems that the devs consider the “follow the main character” approach either easier to market, or to write, or who knows what else is their motivation for a diet warchief.
I skipped a lot since early MoP till the Shadowlands patch, so most thing I know is just rumors, and things like that.
Gameplay in videogames is indeed a tool for story-telling. Although I was more focused on the idea that WotLK is praised as expansion, yet it is the same one that started a lot of problematic trends.
Same with Varian. He is perceived well, but the concept of a budget warchief where the entire faction revolves around praising how good is the chracter that the devs like, is also “legacy of Varian”.
Yeah, one of big “community vs. developers” themes is continuity. So far the devs are fine with retconning stuff. And try to sell such story to the audience that wants consistency. How that supposed to work in their opinion - I can’t even imagine tbh.
I’ve read a couple times that supposedly Metzen in the original works had no intention to make Elune a constant presence in the story. She was supposed to stay that enigmatic deity that for some reason occasionally might grant a blessing.
IMO that means that whatever is going to be done with Elune story started forming in BfA-ish time frame.
iirc she was referred to as “one of”.
But the whole idea had a wave of negative reaction. Touching Elune’s story mean changing content of the events across Azeroth and beyond throughout over 10k years, and touches the motivation of probably every character who ever had interest in the Well of Eternity region, be it original trolls, or Archimonde in W3.
I really doubt they prepared enough to cover all those events and make the story coherent with whatever new reveal will be. Most likely scenario I can imagine would be calling conflicting sources “PoV”, which would bury the chances to have a good story on the topic.
gl hf
It would be cool if nzoth plan did actually work and we just got stuck in anduins vision of fearing to become a 2nd Arthas on the end of the expansion realising it was only a vision and Azeroth is fully corrupted so we turn back to the Titans for help and so on
No Nzoth is alive just somewhere else, that raid was just Genjutsu to put it simply and easy to understand, it happened in our minds only. He does not need to exist in a body of flesh as we saw when he escaped prison he was in some shadowy incorporeal form so that prooves old gods do not need physical bodies.Also it prooves why their bodies are so gross and grotesque, they are used to exist as an energy so it is realy hard to form a vessel that can contain them fully. Xalatath seems to be an exception also yoggsaron too. As they have 1 thing in common they used other bodies as an vessel, and theese bodies were actualy stable not gross and grotesque like avatar of nzoth for example. Yogg had Vrykul woman sara and xalatath has body of an dead elf. My speculation is maybe nzoth learned this too and is among us mortals. Like it probabbly make them even much more powerfull as when they are just blobs of flesh they cant do much, only blast with energy or use their high level telepathy to bend minds. I believe when they have theese propper vessels their powers must be insane, like they could probably shatter continents with punches etc and move fast too+ on top of that having high tier telepathy/mind manipulation, high tier void control, reality and destiny manipulation to some extent too. They are not joke as it took direct titan intervention to kill Y’Shaarj. So in his grotesque flesh form Y’Shaarj was somewhere on the tier close to titan power lvls. Y’Shaarj if he had propper physical form that did not debilitated his movement could push amanthul to use lot of power, like ofc he would not win but would be some challenge not an insect.
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