Been on this thread in the US forums. Wanted to know the opinions around here. OP:
Blizzard previously stated that the current Horde civil war had to happen because the last Horde civil war didn’t fully resolve the tensions within the Horde and they wanted to genuinely close said chapter. So…are those tensions resolved?
Do you think they managed to accomplish so?
I mean there are still quite a few Sylvanas loyalist NPCs in Orgrimmar that just pretend that they’ve changed their minds. So I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
I hope there will be a Division on the alliance soon though, there are more than enough possibilities how it could happen.
impossible elf we are all united in our love for god emperor anduin wrynn unlike the mongrel horde
Absolutely not. The problem is that Blizzard don’t know how to write the Horde, and have essentially made it into two separate entities that they insist is the same one.
On one hand, we have Thrall’s New Horde, honorable and spiritual with a tribal aesthetic. This is the Horde we inherited from WarCraft 3, and the reason anybody still thinks the Horde could be the ‘good guys’. The Tauren and Darkspear Trolls especially are tied into this, which is why they were the ones to rebel first.
On the other hand, we have the Old Horde reborn, a dark, industrial war machine concerned with victory at all costs and the joy of inflicting suffering and death. Characters like Sylvanas and Garrosh and many, many minor characters are aggressive, hateful and violent, and use “honor” only as a justification to cause harm.
Ever since Wrath of the Lich King, this part of the Horde has been the main focus, and the rest of the Horde has to follow along because the story says so no matter how much it clashes with their characterization, making a Siege of Orgrimmar scenario inevitable.
The problem is that these two entities cannot coexist in the Horde. You can have the New Horde, and you can have the Old Horde, but the ideologies of the two groups in-universe, and more importantly, what players want out of the faction out-of-universe, are completely different.
As a roleplayer I’ve run into this problem from both directions; playing an old Orc tired of war, the New Horde promises a new start, a contemplation about what made the Orcs evil and how they can redeem themselves. Then Garrosh and Sylvanas come along and suddenly all the Orc characters are supposed to be okay with another war of aggression and mass murder? Right, that makes that character entirely pointless, because he can’t do anything other than sit the war out in a hut somewhere.
More recently I tried making a new Orc warrior, someone who is too young and naïve to know the real horrors of the Old Horde, who relishes battle and has no real concerns of ‘honor’. Then less than a week after I make her, Sylvanas throws her little tantrum and I no longer have any idea where that character could even go - is she being restrained by Horde honor again? Or is Horde honor just a thin veneer again? Who knows! Certainly not Blizzard.
You have players who insist the Horde are the good guys and the real victims; they’re wrong, obviously, but the important part is that they want to play the New Horde, the one from WarCraft 3 that wasn’t all made up of rampaging genocidal monsters, and yet that’s the direction the Horde tips towards every time we need a conflict.
You have players who want to play the Horde as bad guys, the Sylvanas fans who think genocide is way cool and it’s fun to be the villains - and yet those people are held back by characters like Saurfang, Thrall and especially Baine, who want to bring back the peaceful ways and end the Horde’s reign of terror.
And what does Blizzard do to resolve this innate flaw in the Horde? Put all the blame on Sylvanas and kick her out. There, honor restored and now we have peace! … at least, until the next time the Old Horde needs to manifest again to push the conflict forward.
And as for the players, I think the response to the Rebel/Loyalist split is pretty obvious indicator that no, this motif is far from done. It’s ingrained into the Horde now, and it will remain until Blizzard splits the Horde properly so that both sides can actually get a consistent faction for their preference.
I doubt it. There are those still loyal to Sylvanas, Like me.
Nope. Blizzard just scapegoats Sylvanas and pushed back all important questions to a later date until the A-Plot is finished. I wouldn’t be surprised about another horrible Golden novel clearing those things up and install puppet leaders as horde leaders for the next generation.
Like Baine as warchief or Calia for the undead.
At the end of the day blizzard is awfully biased for alliance and isn’t even trying to hide this favoritism.
Not really, and part of this is the focus on the faction war being over. Had this been earlier, before Kul Tiras joined the Alliance and before Rastakhan was killed I could conceive of the Trolls of the Horde, Darkspear and Zandalari both, mostly staying their peace and leaving the Alliance alone… but regardless of what you think from a meta-perspective; it would make sense for them to be motivated to retaliate now, so this could become yet another point of contention and source of tension within the Horde… Y’know unless they just go back to the way it was before BfA and just forget that Trolls are a people with their own desires and agency and aren’t just background props or loot pinatas…
The only solution to this that I can conceive of is that the Factions are broken down or have their ties “weakened” enough that the individual races and characters can have their individual differences and struggles without it having to necessitate dragging both factions into it… This way you could still open up for the likes of Trolls, Worgen and Night Elves or whoever else to remain hostile without needing the “main narrative” to be exclusively derailed by more faction war storylines.
I’ll repeat what I said there.
No. There are still those loyal to Sylvanas or filled with hatred against the Alliance.
Eventually we’ll get a decent Warchief again and Blizzard will decide that we need to be taught another lesson about why war is bad. So they’ll turn that Warchief evil and start the cycle again.
This.
I’m still quite surprised that they actually allowed the player to stay loyal to be Sylvanas after her renouncement of the Horde… I was quite sure they would just claim the division was gone now, since that’s what they supposedly set out to do with this addon…
But they didn’t. It’s baffling, really. I mean… most people wouldn’t have bought the “Sylvanas doesn’t like you anymore, so you see the error of your way”-
, but at least it would have been clear what they were going for.
As it is… the addon is exactly the waste of time and character we expected from the start. The Warchief roulette is spinning again.
Well, for now that is, who knows, next patch might already essentially dismantle some faction functionalities, cementing the peace in gameplay that was never established in lore…
Isn’t that just part of the story? 
I mean, if you go back in time, then you also had different parts of The Horde that sort of went along even though they didn’t approve, and ultimately rebelled or assimilated.
Gul’dan’s Shadow Council vs. Durotan’s Frostwolf clan.
Blackhand’s dishonorable ways vs. Doomhammer’s honorable ways.
Thralls new Horde vs. Grommash Hellscream’s Warsong clan.
Thrall’s new Horde vs. Garrosh’ Iron Horde.
Vol’jin’s Horde vs. Sylvannas Horde.
To me it seems like a recurring theme. WoW seems to do more with it, probably because of gameplay reasons, but saying it’s bad writing that it’s there seems to dismiss the various seperate fractions within the Horde in the past.
You don’t think that after That many times a recurring theme becomes stale…dull? and recurring becomes a negative form of repetition?
Because I personally do, it doesn’t really matter if you change bits and pieces here and there, if the general narrative will Always be the same…
As for the topic…I’m not convinced either.
And actually after so many years I feel like a stranger in my chosen faction now, it’s a really weird and a non to likable feeling.
I mean, supposedly nobody bears any grudges but on the other hand you feel like you no longer belong either.
Not really. If it furthers a narrative, I think it’s great.
Gul’dan, Blackhand, Durotan, and Doomhammer’s narrative was great, and it came about through the first internal strife in The Horde. It’s their story.
Thrall’s and Grom’s conflicting approaches on Kalimdor were also a great story narrative.
As was the relationship between Thrall and Garrosh.
And I like the contrast that Blizzard orchestrated between Vol’jin and Sylvannas. Very black and white.
The story of The Horde isn’t a story of a faction. It’s a story of characters. If the theme feels recurring, then it’s perhaps because The Horde has a way of having characters that are either very constructive…or very destructive. One seeks redemption where another seeks corruption.
In my opinion The Horde would feel as if it was missing something if there wasn’t a Thrall character around – someone who sought a constructive, peaceful path forward.
And likewise, The Horde would feel as if it was missing something if there wasn’t a Gul’dan character around – someone who was always there, ready to offer a cup of tainted demon blood!
Because that’s The Horde. Those strong character contrasts.
The main frustration comes in that the narrative is basically there to alienate whichever side isn’t in focus at that time before eventually ending in a way that makes you wonder why even bother in the first place.
If this really was Blizzard’s attempt to finally resolve this gap then they have done the exact opposite. Thankfully I have a gut feeling that the factions aren’t going to ultimately matter soon and maybe won’t even be a thing anymore, which will be a mercy killing for the Horde at this point.
Story wise yes but i think that’s not what you are asking.
Forum wise no. Thrall, Vol’jin, Arthas and Gul’dan can’t coexist in harmony and there is no way they can write a story about that Horde, ether there will be conflict or there will be no story at all.
I read this and the us story forum, I can’t find a fundamental principle around withe the division will be resolved.
That isn’t so bad, forums will be dull otherwise.
Are you ok?
I read the OP in the morning and i was expecting something like:
“As long as there are Horde NPCs and PCs in less than 10 pieces the division will not be resolved”
I just knew you would write that!
Good for you I suppose, but you really don’t think it would’ve been an exciting twist/ story to have the other side land the blow first for a change? To stop being a good Old punching bag? To get some smears of #Morally grey on them as opposed to the same old scheme, over and over again?
That really wouldn’t be an interresting change to you?
Personally, I never really minded playing the Villain, the Anti- hero, it’s fun, but I don’t see the Horde as Villains(aside from them getting tarred that way since Cataclysm, or late WotLK), I think the Anti-hero role is perfect for that faction.
But despite that, even I can’t stomach this Black vs White theme BFA turned into, it feels wrong and unjust…and quite frankly, boring and unrelatable.
You can have a faction doing bad stuff, or a character….but deer lord, atleast give them some relatable reasons or cause. I’m not playing Chaos in Warhammer here, I’m playing a Tauren in the supposedly Mighty and Honorable Horde(Blizzard’s sale’s pitch, not mine).
you also talk about furthering the story…I really don’t want to dis your views, Jito, because you’re free to your opinions, but this Story feels stuck in the same repetitive loop, you even pointed that out yourself.
This is the only part of your post, I kinda don’t agree with…I understand the sentiment, for sure. But I really think removing the factions will be a mistake, coupled with I don’t want my World of Warcraft to suddenly change it to something else….Let’s all kill the big baddie! Well, we know how that goes, we win, Everytime!
Or perhaps N’zoth will bring a plottwist and tentacle-…smush all of us into shades of our former factions, actually fighting for survival…and I’ll be wrong, could happen.
I hope so to be honest.
But, I was wondering what will happen to all Horde, Alliance merchandise ?
After all we are talking about a company.
They only think in ways to please their investors.
As people usually say: “Money talks buls hit walks.”
One of the things that I read in the forum is that they wanted to write a narrative that kept us talking about it, so we would be distracted from the lack of content in game.
It worked on me at least.
First time ever I spent more played days on the forums than actually adding time to my characters.
Cheers.
I get that, I do. Not everyone likes change and this would be huge but I’m just at the stage where I have no faith in them to write a proper faction war story that isn’t copy and paste formula anymore.
N’zoth destroying the factions down to survival levels would be a nice change of pace but, sadly, WoW is a power fantasy through and through which means any feeling of loss must be kept to a bare minimum. I hate it but that is what it is.
It’s not quite the same thing.
A) These events took place in the RTS games, where there was no personal involvement in the faction for the players. In an RPG, the players feel some affinity for their faction, as their characters are supposed to be part of that faction.
B) All of these conflicts actually ended very quickly and brutally. The Frostwolves were ejected from the Horde for opposing the Shadow Council. Doomhammer’s “honorable” ways weren’t very honorable, and they only happened after Blackhand was already dead.
Thrall and Grom’s conflict was likewise brief; Thrall ordered Grom to get his act together and then when Grom failed and attacked the humans unprovoked, Thrall sent him away to gather lumber, far away from any humans. Thrall had no idea that Grom would find and antagonize an entirely different race, of course…
C) In all of these cases, the conflict flares up and splits the identity of the Horde - and then is decided one way or another. Gul’dan ejects the Frostwolves, making certain the Horde is firmly in the hands of the Shadow Council and the Legion. Orgrim slays Blackhand, taking control for himself. Grom is removed from the conflict zone to prevent another battle breaking out. Garrosh is overthrown. Sylvanas is overthrown.
Blizzard making these things happen, though, while people are playing Horde characters, creates the problem of immersion and investment:
If you want to be on the side of Good Guy Thrall, you are still forced to play quests where you are loyal to Garrosh as he betrays every part of Thrall’s vision, and even if you’re happy with Garrosh, he’s going to get kicked out of the Horde when the status quo resets. The same applies with Sylvanas. Either way, nobody ends up happy with it.
And the core of my problem with it is that Blizzard tells us that the Horde is one thing, when it demonstrably is not. If the Horde were the Sith Empire, and all the evil stuff and betrayal was par for the course and the design intent, it would be great - but it isn’t. We keep resetting to status quo, of the Horde as a “family” of outcasts, except these outcasts wage wars of aggression, commit horrible atrocities, all the while claiming that they are honorable and the real victims, no matter how often they have to be smacked down.
It makes the Horde such an unlikeable and crappy faction, because it just won’t decide if it is good or evil. If it was well-written, it could be neither - but that sort of nuance doesn’t exist here, because everything bad they do is always taken to some ridiculous extreme like Southshore or Teldrassil, making it about as morally grey as coal tar while it cries about how the Alliance are the real bullies.
For me, playing the Horde, I just want it to fall on one side or the other. It can be good or evil, but it has to make it up its f***ing mind.
That’s why I doubt that will fully go away. But I kind of hope that they will be treated more like different sports teams than mortal enemies in the literal sense. That you can group up and do stuff together doesn’t mean you can’t have seperate leagues that require you to group within your faction, etc. Or imagine some ressource gathering event where the base you build might get Horde or Alliance aesthetics, if one faction or the other contributed more. Stuff like that.
I think the faction identity is something they want to keep.
I think the inability to play with your friends on the other side is something they want to lose.
And I think people harassing each other over the faction they chose, and screaming about who is the more despicable person is something they wouldn’t mind ending, if they could do so without losing money.