Holy nova to reveal a badly positioned rogue, he just cheapshots me , runs away and restealths.
Can’t use aoe spells defesnively as in most cases Sap can reach further than them. No point using them offensively because Subterfuge.
Is there any punishment for being caught?
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Well unless you’re in a 1v1 (and in that case the rogue can just wait dampening in arena or run away in open world) then you have teammates with you. Spot a rogue and you’re in combat, he can’t sap you. Spot a rogue and if your team doesn’t need too much time to process the information they will get in combat too. Also if you spot a rogue when your team isn’t stacked like crazy or when the rogue is far (well as priest you can’t but imagine rain of fire or death and decay) then he simply can’t set up cc on everyone with subterfuge, and depending on range he might not get cc on anyone at all.
There is less punishment that in the past for being caught thanks to subterfuge, true, but also there are much more spells to put a rogue out at no cost so it evens out. And in the end if you spot a rogue he won’t have the same opener as if you didn’t spot him.
Last detail, getting a rogue out wity nova doesn’t mean he’s basly positioned. Holy nova is around you, if he wants to sap or open he was to come near, and risk getting spotted.
That being said I’ve experienced weird stuff where I’d sap right when a priest would nova and well he’d be sapped and the nova wouldn’t hit me even though I could swear I was in the aoe range.
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if only this game wasnt hand-holding, subterfuge wouldnt exist.
Funny part, rogues thinking they are better than previous ones when this kind of stuff didnt exist back in tbc/wotlk/cata.
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Well subterfuge does make the game easier stealth wise there’s nothing to contradict here.
A lot of things other than Subterfugr wouldn’t be there if the game wasn’t “hand holding”.
Subterfuge should only work if you as the rogue are the one to break stealth. Doesn’t make sense you’re unpunished for being knocked out of stealth, other than that you can’t sap.
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Well sap it THE most powerful thing rogues can do in opener from stealth.
A priest can spam holy nova ad vitam eternam that means rogues can never open on him without losing stealth and subterfuge by that logic (assuming we change subterfuge so it works as you suggested). Same for fury warriors and their whirlwind. A couple other classes can, theoretically by that logic, prevent a rogue from opening. So, they don’t currently do it because they know we have subterfuge. But what you’re saying is nerf subterfuge but lets not look at the spells that prevent stealth based openers which are core to rogue design.
It’s like saying bring back dispels without cd because it was like that before. The idea is cool but in the current game that would kill off quite a few specs. But if you ignore this and only focus on the dispel itself instead of the game around well then it’s a cool idea.
No spammable AoE grants immunity to being opened up on by a rogue or sapped. As mentioned, Sap outranges a few abilities, but you can also go in between the GCD, or if you must you can sac your Shadowstep for it.
I’m not just against Subterfuge, I also dislike Shimmer, no drawback on pala immunities, warriors only having to focus on 1 stance, Cheat Death mechanics etc.
All things I consider to be “handholding” and significantly reduces the gap between good and bad players.
In the instance I mentioned I was in a 2v2 and had told my friend to engage in combat with healer asap to avoid sap. Rogue landed sap on him anyway so I holy nova’d and revealed him and the rest I described in the post.
Holy nova only has 2 yards more than sap and it rarely reveals. Rogues can just hover around 12 yards and come in for sap on the GCD.
That’s a post I can totally agree with.
What I meant with those spammable aoes was that back when Subterfuge wasn’t an option you didn’t spam aoe like an imbecilr either, even as dps classes because they did cost mana and it was something people had to manage. This is no longer true > endless spamming with no penalty is possible for some classes > subterfuge.
Ah yeah. Even though I do just that as it’s how you land the sap one might argue that it’s not safe to hover around 12y because the priest can suddenly jump towards you instead of going in one directipn or being still. You cannot predict his pathing.
Cries in RoF needing three shards, which conveniently get reset to 0 as soon as the arena gates open.
Hum. How do some Warlocks RoF the stairs near my box on Dalaran Arena ? A talent to make it free ?
But when I said “at no cost” I meant, back in the day you’d spend mana and mana WAS a resource for casters. Now they have mana but it’s just visual they don’t actually use any, not in a significant way. The only time you see mana being a thing is when hybrid classes too their teammates with flash heals or when a mage is purging. And that doesn’t impact their damage output at all.
Yeah I know what you mean, was just a jab at how badly RoF in itself is designed. It’s in its worst iteration yet.
I long for the days of resource management, was a core identity of warlock but these designers just have no clue.
The shards auto-regen if you’ve not been in combat for 15 sec, but it takes exactly 7 seconds from 0 shards to 3. Most rogues I encounter are fast enough to sap before that time window. Not always possible, depending on comp. It’s just one of those MANY MANY annoying bugs warlocks are plagued with in arenas.
just use combat bug lol
Now youre on stun dr? Seems good to me
He restealthed and can just wait out DR timer.
Not to mention he shouldn’t have even bothered restealthing. He could have just opened on me from cheapshot and avoided having to wait out DR timer in the first place.
So attack the healer?
Subterfudge is one of the most stupid talents added to the game. All rogue specs have mobility spell Hook or Shadow that is not on GCD so they shouldn’t have problems with opening the target. Subterfudge removes the posibility of failing the opener.
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