Yeah, but that’s a form of inbreeding where WoW players bounce around to other MMORPGs like GW2 or FFXIV, and then maybe they go back to WoW or they don’t. But the genre doesn’t grow. It relies on that same audience of veteran players that it’s had for some years now. In that sense it’s pretty stagnant.
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Maybe that’s due to the low dopamine from mmo as younger generations need more stimulation. To be honest, M+ does feel very similar to some shooters in terms of dopamine
They need to to do something like the catalyst for other mog then t set.
Let me change my sword into a raid sword.
That could also help with things like blizzard sometimes making a really good rare dropp and then balancing the classes around that like the legy from df.
Yeah, for sure, and that also reflect the development of WoW (and other MMORPGs) over the years, as Fablow alluded to as well. It’s gogogo and short gameplay segments with lots of action and immediate reward. The design becomes more like that of another genre than the genre it says it is.
Again, gw2 is not a gogogo mentality at all and it works. Wow would be fine if the devs put effort into the game. There is nothing to do rather than m+ nowadays
Sure. Again my point would be that GW2 is not reflective of the MMORPG genre as a whole, and despite GW2 being great for the people who play it – like WoW is for the people who play WoW – the lure of playing any MMORPG is just not very attractive to gamers anymore, in general. MMORPGs continue to only appeal to the same veteran playerbases they’ve had for years. And they do so by increasingly moving away from their original and traditional MMORPG designs, which they have varying degrees of success with.
And then you get some niches like GW2 or OSRS or what have you, that try to differentiate themselves by not copying the WoW formula. But it’s still a genre that’s stagnant. And I don’t think effort from the developers will change that.
If the world quest enjoyer saves 40 hours, it means he can do more wqs and be even happier.
If the lore guy saves 40 hours, it means he can explore more lore by doing other questlines, or reading a book by blizz, or even replaying favorite questlines
If the craft guy saves 40 hours, it means he can develop his skinning more or craft more leather goods etc.
I can come up with any amount of groups, that need bis, but its hard to come up with people, who dont. Pure roleplayers? Maybe some AH players?
So like i have proven by calculations above, people, who could gain immensely by having bis, are the majority.
So you would improve the game by giving this majority their bis.
So the smart decision is for blizzard to finally put that bis everywhere, and stop trying to prop up mythic unnaturally by forcing non-mythic players to do it for bis. This only leads to the toxicity, that the topic author so rightly dislikes. If a person wants to do wqs, or crafting, or lore etc., but is forced to do mythic, ofc. this person would be toxic.
Yes, top percent, that wants to be first and “play competitively”, will be unhappy, but like you said, majority is more important.
I am glad we agreed on this.
Hope blizzard does too
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You need to switch out your team if they get out DPS´ed by the single button rotation unless their Hunters…then it sort of makes sense (( take that pet collectors ! ))
Sure it´s neat if you have never played the class and want to see how a basic rotation is done, fair enough.
But even as a Warrior I would be cutting my damage in HALF if not more so by using that one button rotation not to mention what it would do to a mythic raider level Warrior.
SO if you are getting " out DPS´ed " by the single button rotation that is a YOU problem.
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I been telling people this for years and people take offense to this statement.
On the other hand I can understand them if they done the dungeon gazillion times already and don’t want to waste time but still ppl should be considerate of others.
This is the sad reality of EU wow on US you will not see this attitude at all talking from experience since I play on both regions and the difference is night and day.
I’ve tested that one button rotation it’s terribad imho because my normal rotation does twice as much dps then one button rotation xD.
Why saving tho? It’s all content. You just get more of it and can play it longer 
I don’t see that. I see that they quit earlier. You reduce play time of one of their contents just to push them quicker into their “more favorite” (?) content, so they can get there quicker, to finish it faster.
Well it’s not smart tho. You want to punish the majority, who actually want to play the game, just to make a minority happy, who want to quit earlier. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
That’s not what is happening. You want to do WQs? You can do that half naked. Who forces you to do ANY mythic content for this? That’s straight up a lie. Crafting? You need to do mythic content for this? Hell no. Not true. What else? Lore? You have to do mythic content for lore?? Since when? Like every single example you made, does not match reality. Not in the slightest.
It’s not the top percent, it’s the majority of players. More important, it’s not solo players but the most important part of community. The players that play together. The players that make the game an actual MMORPG and not a single player simulator
You said things I agree 100% and this all is the main reason I don’t tank anymore, nor do I run pugs. Guild runs are not an option as I’m the only one left, all others have either left or died irl.
All, except one thing; I do undercut in AH, a lot. Not because I want to make my sell asap, but because the prices today are just absurd. 50K for a gray armour piece? I don’t want to be a part of that, and just as in real life, money has never been important to me. Sure it’s nice to have enough to live and eat… barely… but that’s enough.
Regarding LIFO.I suspect, it only became thing cuz AH can work fine with stackable items only with this system. Which is dog water. If someone wake up and place item earlier,that item of same price should be sold first.Period.Goblins will make method for any system.And they not gonna change their behavior,do not worry.
Way too much of ppl tired of oversaturated market, so even simple people dropping prices just to ensure goblins will buy it . Many things are simply not worth the time it takes to sell.
I think it’s part of a larger issue that is intrinsic to the homosapien. We don’t just ‘not give a damn about each other’, we actively hate each other now over our differences. This trait has been present since we were chimpanzees, but now that we have the means to do it, we are expressing our hatred for each other more frequently and more openly.
As long as humans exist, this will always happen.
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how long you do something, e.g. 10 minutes or 2 hours, does not increase the amount of content. its the same content, just you do it in 10 minutes or 2 hours.
however, there is a time constraint, so if its 2 hours, someone cant do it. so by making it 10 minutes you enable people to actually access the content.
simultaneously, if something is done in 10 minutes, rather than 2 hours, they can do more of it = they can do more content.
So to recap, by decreasing the amount of time, that is required to kill and subsequently to do some content, BIS either allows people to access said content at all or allows people to access more of this content, or just saves people time generally, so they have better game-life balance.
So yes, the only people, who dont benifit from BIS, are people, who never engage in combat: RPers, Auction House players etc.
My proof does not touch them, but then these players, who never do PVE or PVP in WOW, are not negatively affected by what happens with bis, would not you agree? just based on the fact they dont use any gear at all, except like mogs.
Otherwise, everyone needs BIS and we have proven it mathematically
q.e.d.
Yes, if you restrict bis to mythic, you punish the majority, because the majority does not want to do mythic to get bis to do their thing, which is not mythic.
But if you give bis to every playstyle, you reward the majority, because they dont have to do mythic they dont like.
This solves the problem of toxicity in mythic, in a major part, because people, who have never wanted to do mythic, dont need to anymore. So they dont come into mythic and dont ruin the mood. This only becomes possible by giving them bis via other channels.
No, only top percent cares about being first or being best. Its the least important part of the community, and if blizzard continues to make the game around them, they will just keep losing subscribers.
the game is already like 1/10 of all it used to be and is only alive on alternative game modes,i.e. wow classic, remixes, battle royale etc.
Already wow is a niche game and barely has enough subs to keep up the development
Lets not completely put it into the ground by building the game around top percent, who “world first”/ “plays competitively”
I never said you would increase the amount of content. I said you get more of it in sense you can play it longer.
If someone’s goal is to play the least amount possible, why even playing in the first place? Especially a MMORPG.
Well since there is nothing that takes 2 hours and Blizzard actually designed the said content (with the rewards in mind that people get), it’s working as intended. If someone does not have the time to play that content, the game is just not for him.
Why would we ruin everything for the majority, just because a few people, who have barely any time to play, want to finish something quicker? This is completely irrational. And if even Blizzard sees this, that should tell you a lot 
Look, if someone has no time. Well… he has no time.
Outside of that, it’s great to have so much content that you can’t finish it, no? That means you have always something to do and you get all the value for your money. That’s great. That’s like getting more food than you can finish for the same amount of money. Much better than paying same price and leaving the restaurant hungry af, don’t you think?
There is no reason to speedrun everything, especially for people who have no time to play anyway. That sounds like an addict behavior. Games are here for fun. You should enjoy it.
No, it does not. This is just straight wrong. You don’t need any BiS as solo player to access any solo player content. It is not designed the way that forces you to have ANY BiS for said content.
If you have a hobby and your goal is to be done with it quick, instead of simply enjoying it, then something is very off here.
That’s like saying “let’s go out and play pool but only 1 win so we can leave quick again”… who the heck does that? 
No, not everyone needs it. That’s the point.
You make an argument that some people simply want it in order to stop playing faster. Yet they do not need it order to play the content they enjoy. (speaking of solo players here)
You can show me, mathematically, how someone is not able to do the entire solo content in a season and I can already tell you what happens. You will basically just show someone who has no time to play the game at all. That’s not a healthy game design to design your game around people who are NOT playing it. You should ALWAYS design the game around the people who actually DO play it.
No, you do not punish the majority.
What you are trying to say is, that you make some people offended who want to get something without doing what’s required for it. That’s a completely different story.
Ask yourself, do I have the right to be offended if I am not getting millions of gold? I mean I don’t farm it, I don’t do any AH stuff and no crafting, no gathering etc. Am I still entitled to millions of gold tho? Like I want it… why can’t I have it? Sounds kinda delusional to be entitled to that while not doing anything in order to get that, right? Yet I can still play the game btw and the content I want.
This is very naive and selfish thinking. First of all, you seem not to understand the issue what happens if you implement some sort of BiS items to solo players. That means you force the majority to grind a content they don’t want to grind in order to stay competitive. And what for? Because a minority of players who is not even playing the game, wants to be as strong as the people who put in all the time and effort to progress on their character in a MMORPG? That’s nuts.
Like THAT’S toxic to me. Forcing a huge amount people to do something they don’t want just because someone, who does not even want to be part of the community, feels offended.
Well the reality is that Blizzard increases the relevant part of the community.
As a Dev of a MMORPG, you rather want 5 million of people active people who play the game as much as possible, than 10 million of people who log in for a few minutes and don’t play with each other.
That’s a PC MMORPG, not a mobile phone game.
Well that’s not true.
And WoW is alive mainly because of M+ and raids. Nothing else is holding it alive.
If solo players disappeared tomorrow, the game would not notice. At all. It’s a MMORPG in the first place, not a singleplayer.
(obviously Blizzard would notice the money drop but the the game itself would just be played as it always was)
As the playerbase has aged they have gotten more responsibilities in real life. Things like work, family and community things. As a result their time to play is limited so they need success and quickly. While I 100% agree the culture of GOTTA GO FAST at all times can be both draining and anti-fun, the toxicity is down the player being toxic, not the content itself. I’ve had many gotta go fast groups in timewalking while leveling alts and they’re friendly people who still find time to chat.
This is you being selfish like you say others are being. “IF YOU DON’T DO IT LIKE HOW I WANT TO DO IT, YOU’RE THE PROBLEM!” - Killineiram ~2025
If you don’t like how others are playing you can create your own groups and set the pace. There will be people who are willing to slow down and clear everything. You’re expecting everyone to play your way because you maybe have more time and less responsibilities.
The point of the AH is also a terrible take. Lost of people want fast-ish sales for a little amount of gold for whatever they need it for, if it means that much to you, buy it low sell it high since you’re all about the economy.
A guild is under no obligation to non-members to help them gear up, learn content or gain rating. Again, you can solve this problem by making your own guild, your own community or finding one suited to your needs. You can’t demand entrance to a guild geared towards high rating or mythic raiding, they don’t owe you anything.
This is, infact, repugnant. You should not be punished for defending yourself and anyone who tells another to kill themselves should, at the very least, be muted in game for a while.
I do agree the content isn’t broken, most issues are infact cause by players. To that end I play with very few people of a similar playstyle.
You’re whole post boils down to “I’m not having fun because of other players, they should accomidate me!” when it can be easily argued you can accomidate them or find like minded people to play with. People on WoW don’t owe you anything. Not their time, not their knowledge and not their reasoning for how they play. You make a lot of demands, but I’ll need to see some effort on your part that you’re doing more than belly-aching about the issues before I can take it seriously.
Mobile phone culture turned eveyone into selfish individuals. There is no loyalty to fellow users as players focus only on themselves. The sad thing is that most don’t even see anyone else when they play now. The phone has developed a society where nobody cares whether they tell the truth or not. If its good enough for world leaders to lie then why should anyone playing a game be any different. Gaming is more these days about choices on a menu and the crowds just wash across from one thing to another. Its hard seeing how anything you say here is going to make a difference cus in truth I don’t think anyone really cares. Its about what the individual can attain and brag about on forums. Self validation is a badge gamers wear to show how much better they are than the next guy. If that means dumping on somebody in a game to get something then sorry but that will happen. Like I say all humans these days are fundamentally selfish. And that is the core of your problem.
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Ok, let me simplify this
you admit the amount of content is increased, but you play it longer.
So if doing 1 unit of content gives you 1 unit of happiness,
you do 1 unit of content per 5 min you get 1 unit of happiness
you do 5 units of content per 5 mins and you get 5 units of happiness
Another simple example i can give you, is a person is lore-oriented, he is doing quests right. Basically this person wants to read quests, watch cutscenes and explore the place where the quest takes place. The combat is completely moot, its fluff, its filler, its waste of time for this person.
So to maximize the happiness for this person, you basically need to enable this person to kill everything with one click.
But that is done via bis
So bis maximizes happiness for this person.
I hope, you get the idea now.
Mathematically speaking, for every playstyle, that engages in PVE or PVP, there is a very simple way to openly show, that they need as good BIS as possible in the overwhelming majority of cases.
No, you can probably do a zone worth of quests in 2 hours with ok ilvl. But if you have high ilvl versus doing a low ilvl zone, you can probably do 3 or even more.
every single person has time constraints.
and we know statistically how much an average person can play a computer game.
so we know from stats, that not giving a person bis in wow means the majority of player mass will be blocked from a good portion of in-game activities.
so its not surprising people dont even want to play anymore, since they cant exctract happiness from playing the game by doing the activities they want to do.
no, its not. psychology 101
you are putting a meat on a rope into a dog’s mouth, and then yanking it from the dog’s mount, before the dog can eat it.
No, its like getting less food for more money and more time.
Here, let me explain this.
You pay a subscription for time you play. So you invest your time directly by playing and also you invest money.
In your analogy with food, you pay for food and then invest time into eating it.
By not giving BIS, you increase the amount of time a person has to spend doing the activity. So you decrease the amount of activities a person can do in the amount of time he paid for. So you increase the amount of time the person has to pay for to do all the activities. So you increase the amount of money the person has to pay for doing all the planned activities.
In your analogy with food, the customer pays the same amount of money, but he is given less food, but has to spend the same amount of time eating this food. So to eat all the food the customer wants, he has to spend more time and more money.
You are getting less food for the same money and time
Meaning
You have to pay more money and spend more time to get the same amount of food.
Why are you dictating other people, how they have to play.
Using your analogy, if you want to pay more money for the same bagel, it does not mean the majority would not want more bagels for the same money, so exactly the opposite.
you jsut argued several posts before for speedrunning the ilvl acquisition.
You specifically said, that a person feels obliged to get ilvl as fast as possible
You are contradicting yourself
this is straight wrong.
there is content, that requires such time investment, that exceeds time constraints of casual players=general public, meaning the content is unavailable to them.
but if you give them bis, then the content takes time, that they do have, and then thus you make the content available to them.
think of time-limited rewards and achievements, for example
yes, by restricting bis to the game mode the majority of people dont want to play and forcing them to play it you punish the majority
you misrepresent what i am saying.
i did not say people should get bis for nothing.
i said they should get bis for game activity they prefer, instead of getting it through mythic
Basically i am saying, that taking the most important commodity in WOW (bis), that everyone needs (except for RPers and AH players), and putting it behind an activity most people dislike (mythic) is how you create toxicity towards the game and in the game
You allow the majority to stop grinding the content the majority does not want to grind (mythic)
so that the majority gets positive emotions instead of negative.
a person, who is clearing top tier delve or a high key can easily clear the mythic raid, but not vice verse. so why are we pretending, that mythic raid is some kind of pinnacle of skill, its ridiculous
But beyond that, if you feel, that some activity, lets say world quests, dont require the person to work as hard as a delver, then you just increase the difficulty of acquiring bis via the world quests.
what is really stupid is forcing the majority to do the thing they dont like (mythic raids)
THATS TOXIC to me
there are like 10% absolute top, who think in terms of “world first” “competitive player”
the majority just want to be able to get their bis without playing bloody mythic
Subscription data clearly shows that the game was going into oblivion, so blizzard started spamming alternative game modes and that evened the subscription levels and even elevated them a little, altho at a very low level still
If you analyze the sub data, its obvious the game is alive due to alternative game modes, not the retail
and the reason is because retail is built top percent of players, instead of catering to the majority
and the best example of it is locking bis behind mythic raids
Actually I said, word for word, the amount does not increase.
Now this explains where your issue is. You just calculate happiness wrong (assuming we could calculate it that easy)
In your world you are only happy the more different stuff you do. In reality it does not matter tho. If something is fun, then you want to do it longer. (generally speaking of course)
So if something is fun to you, you don’t get 1 fun unit per activity but rather 1 fun unit per minute. (taking your example here) So in your example it would be literally the same amount of fun.
I get your point, yes.
But no, you are wrong. The person does not need BiS gear. At all. The content needs to be designed with appropriate reward so the kill speed is increased. And that’s exactly how questing is designed. Don’t believe me? Look up the posts from the start of TWW, the forum was full with how “too easy” questing was
And this fact is basically my whole point, asking for BiS is based on a selfish irrational reason, there is no valid purpose behind it.
It’s not: The content is “too difficult” (or slow) therefore I need it.
It’s: Some random guy has it, I want it too because…!
I get your idea but that’s kinda delusional and I don’t mean it in a bad or offensive way.
The reality is that devs don’t want their game to be played like that and they can’t really control how everyone plays it while at the same time reading their mind and satisfy everyone’s needs.
When questing was too easy at the start of TWW, many solo players came out acting like god tier tournament players in all genres. When people suggested them to simply take off gear, what do you think… was it well received?
I mean… and why do you have to do a whole zone in a gaming session? Is there a reason for a solo player to rush? Aren’t solo players mostly playing solo because they want their “own pace” since everything else is way too fast for them?
Because you keep making arguments that it was has to go super, super fast for the solo players… what for? They not going for world first something? What is wrong with enjoying the content that’s there at the speed that’s there? Why trying so hard to minimize the play time? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
Yes and Blizzard designs this content around that. And it works.
So I still don’t understand: Why trying to minimize play time by minutes?
There is enough stuff to do, it’s not too quick and it does not take too long. You have X amount of time, ok, you do X quests. Why the need for x+1? The content can still be played the next time you play too. You are not falling behind anything, there is literally no reason to rush.
But they can? I still don’t see the argument to why they can’t.
All you say is they can’t “one shot” everything and “two shots” take too long. Like… why?
I am sorry, I don’t see any logical reasoning at all.
This analogy does not really fit. But anyways, the content is designed the way that you are able to finish it in a reasonable amount of time within the season. (usually, much much faster while not requiring you to really progress gear)
See, this is where you get it wrong. You see time as an investment here, while suggesting the person wants to eat every single dish on the menu asap.
That’s an addictive behavior. That’s not healthy.
Transferring this to WoW, would mean that you can’t finish the food in a reasonable amount of bites, in order to try everything you want, in the time given. But that’s the thing tho. You can. That’s the whole point.
You argue that you want eat faster than others and be done quick
The problem is that you value your time here like you are losing out on something. If that’s the case, then gaming should be not a thing in the first place. Most people don’t view time as a loss, when spending more of it on stuff they like. Like going on vacation. I think most of us don’t want to be done with the vacation in 1 day just because we are “losing” time, ye?
But that’s how you view it. You view it as a time loss doing something you like.
I am sorry for suggesting people to have fun in a video game. Call me Ditler.
On the other hand: Why do these people want to dictate other people how to play just because they have no fun and want to be done with the game asap? Others want to play longer. Let us?
Your analogy is wrong again tho.
It’s more like you can have your bagel but you see me buying a bigger one and now you want it too but for less money just because we happened to be in the same shop 
I said a competitive player in competitive environment. It just is how it is, if you have more gear your chances of getting invited to do specific group content are drastically increased. That’s human nature, I can not change it. Nor can you.
Who does the solo player compete with? Who is gonna hold him back doing his content with less gear? Exactly. Nobody.
So, no. There is no contradiction.
It’s not tho? Give me an example. Like I can give you a video of ilvl 635 doing t11 delve. That’s 50 ilvls below mythic raider with ZERO BiS items.
Give me an example of what you mean.
What do you need max gear for? What is there that is not achievable without it for a solo player? I am 100% sure there is not such thing, simply due to the fact how solo player content is designed. If someone can’t do it then simply because he has no time to play the game at all and more gear would not fix it. Nor should the game be designed around this kind of players. It’s a MMORPG, not a moba.
The majority of players are not solo players.
Also, where you see punishment, others see goals and achievements. As long as you don’t need something, it’s ok to not have it but at the same time there is nothing wrong with that, getting this tiny little reward if you push a bit harder.
You don’t need that mythic raid trinket (as example) the heroic version will do it for the majority as well.
The reality is that skill becomes an issue to most people and not that 0,01% (or make it even 1%) more power in gear they are lacking.
Seems like I am still right tho.
You just take nothing literally. Doing quests is “nothing” for someone. Finishing T11 delves is “nothing” for some. In terms of difficulty and time investment (since you like that :P)
But if you use your logic, that everyone should acquire everything in the content he does. How are you gonna explain the crafter that I am now making millions of gold from dungeons? He’d not even craft anymore and they much more other different issues would appear but you get the idea. It’s just not realistic.
I get your point, the issue is that you say “need” which is false. What you mean is “want”.
When you “need” something, it means otherwise you are locked out of said content. You are not tho, as solo player. Not having BiS gear, will still let you enter and finish every solo playable content. This is just a fact.
Now if you apply the same rules for a M+/Raid player, it doesn’t work like that because you compete with other players for the same spot and the guy with BiS will be picked over you That’s where we speak of “need” and not “want”.
No, you force the majority (which are M+ and raid players) now to grind delves (content they are not interested in) for the easy BiS so they can stay competitive.
And at what cost? Pure childish entitlement. There is no need for delve players to have BiS, factually. Even proven with video evidence if you wish 
Excuse me, what?
Are you saying top tier mythic raiders can’t clear a t11 delve and a t11 delve player can easily clear mythic raid? I think I misread, no?
Because this is factually wrong and we have data for this.
That’s not what the people want tho. It is designed way it is for a reason.
Well nobody is forcing them tho? That’s the thing.
A M+ player don’t need mythic raid in order to compete with the top of the top M+ players.
Before, we needed raids (not mythic) for M+. Now we don’t.
And right now we also need to do delves even tho we don’t want to.
But you don’t need to do raids or M+ as a delve player.
That’s not really the case tho.
You have high → low → high → low all the time in WoW and it has nothing to do with game modes and definitely not with solo players.
BfA ~5.2 million
Shadowlands ~6.5–7 million
Dragonflight ~4.7 million
TWW ~7.2–7.5 million
That’s should be peak numbers for the expansion. (didn’t double check tho)
You can use WoWlogs and see which kind of players you find more, M+ and raiders or Delve players. I guarantee you it will be not delves
Well this is still wrong.
Recently, on the World of Warcraft Twitter, Blizzard made a poll asking how players are playing WoW right now. The results revealed that Dragonflight holds the lead with an impressive 52.3% of the votes, securing the top spot. Despite hogging all the hype in recent times, Classic SoD is in the second position, with 33.9% of players favoring this version. WoW Classic garnered 8.9% of the votes. And Hardcore holds 4.9% of players opting for this challenging gameplay experience.
And that was on SoD release iirc, so basically peak. And remember, that was during DF, the expansion that had less players than SL or TWW. So your assumption is wrong here.