yeah, forsaken’s development into something more is very natural, it’s just some people want to see black and white in game, ignoring themes that were ingrained since warcraft’s setting was developed.
Honestly I don’t see it that way. When you take something that is supposed to be one way and make it another it just looks bad most of the time. Not always, but often. Kind of like making the nelfs be into technology like gnomers and goblins. It might be amusing once, but when that becomes the standard, it’s just annoying in my opinion. Same with nice zombies.
I meant to say mind control, sorry.
Yeah and they deal with that by being insane sadistic zombies. Take that away from them and all you have are sad walking corpses. Why the hell would I play that? If I wanted to be sad I’d roll a nelf.
Yes, you have to go and kidnap one. And then you proceed to scare their children until they literally faint. Sorry chief, the Forsake you dream about just don’t exist.
Aha, now you are starting to get it.
See the thing is that is exactly the same, because in the absence of conflict there just us working together with the Alliance.
Someone who disregards morality, isn’t a good person. And maybe what you call pragmatism is in fact their insanity playing out. Until they started trying to fix every flaw, the Forsaken were known to complicate simple tasks with morbid (and funny in my opinion) side tasks, like when you have to kill scarlet crusaders and have their bodies be consumed by rats. Many other such examples.
I disagree. They can stay that way until the end of WoW. Because that’s what they are and what they were meant to be before you people started getting this thing about fixing them cause, I don’t know they crap your style.
Because it is all black and white when it comes to this. They are either crazy zombies or they aren’t. It’s that simple.
That’s not what I intended to say but nvm.
Yes it’s not the best way of coping but they aren’t evil for the sake of being evil! they are not scourge or legion, and there are plenty of forsaken characters who lean into good side.
I mean, that’s how humans usually made domestic breeds of animals, murloc is an animal
i mean yeah, i always understood this, and this quote highlights complex fact that forsaken are victims of scourge first and foremost, brought to undeath against their will, used as weapon, and then suddenly got their mind back with various degrees of damage to it. It’s not an origin of evil nation, it’s a tragedy. There are forsaken who try to do better in the world, and evil actions of forsaken en large aren’t driven by evil for evil’s sake but by desire to save even their current semblance of living, mix it with various degrees of sociopathy, the fact that almost every living human sees and treats them as evil monstrosity, the fact that they also hate their current being and attitude of their former brethren only confirms this vile self image - you’ll get partly self created enemies and evil undead zombies.
Forsaken have a brilliant lore, i don’t know how someone can see them just as evil for evil sake undead.
Name those plenty. Please. And what would be a reasonable number to properly represent the word “plenty”.
It’s a humanoid. They have tribes, build houses craft tools and weapons and even have their own language. You don’t pay attention much do you?
compared to plot presence in story of who? night elves?
Alonsus Faol, Jubeka Shadowbreaker, this apothecary dude who saved belf life which name i forgot in ghostlands belves questline.
To be honest i can’t name much, most of the forsaken are talking heads with barely any personality to them, there are plenty of forsaken in priest class hall, forsaken in mage class hall, and they all worked on defending legion and fighting back to back with “good” races, also forsaken that joined argent crusade. Simple fact that forsaken are playable race and are able to be heroes of azeroth speaks volumes that they are not monolith.
Language is comic relief gimmick which was never properly explored, druids can “talk” to various animals, hunter’s pets are very intelligent despite them basically being animals.
Do you know who else have features you described and they EXIST irl? Monkeys, they can even understand emotions and primitive gestures. we consider them animals.
The issue with the Forsaken is that they were fundamentally locked to Sylvanas. Like, no other Forsaken of importance could think different than their leader.
The Forsaken and the Naga are two races I compare a lot; because despite both being loyal to their Queens, Naga were given independence from their Queen, whilst the Forsaken were not.
The Forsaken had some really interesting parts of history that could have been explored, such as the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow. That was such a unique Priest angle and to think they were using Shadow Magic to heal and what were they doing with Shadow Magic to commune with spirits around Lordaeron…but, it never took off because the focus was purely Sylvanas.
I mean, Natalie Seline could have returned to Lordaeron and become the Undercity High Priestess, since she was the Matron of the Cult from the end of the Second War - but no, it seems the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow was simply the “Cult of the Forgotten” because the focus was purely on Sylvanas and those immediately around her (Deathstalkers, Val’kyr and Apothecaries.)
The Val’kyr basically made the Cult irrelevant and that was a shame, because I think the Cult is far more interesting than the former Scourge Fairies.
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It’s because it’s far more profitable to represent edgy zombie dudes who worship sexy elf than something more nuanced.
And nuance is here as you said, it’s just not fleshed out
Working together to maintain peace so they don’t kill each others. It’s not like being buddy buddy with the Alliance.
Yes, that’s true. But what I meant is that the Forsaken didn’t care about questionning their morality. Notcif they were good or bad at the time.
Yes, they did horrible things. A lot. But we also know that some Forsaken actually has integrity. BfA showed us that.
Don’t you think that reducing the Frosaken to that is a huge waste ? Like Dralkharn said, they’re not evil for the sake of being evil. The lore about them is really interesting.
Why wasting any atempt to develop them ?
Okay, but don’t forget that in other heroic fantasy universes like LotR or Warhammer, orcs and trolls are basically evil races who must be killed at sight. What makes the orcs and trolls of Warcraft interesting is because they actually have feelings and can experience regret, sadness, love or anger like any humans.
Yep, but it’s also understandable why it was like this. Sylvanas did maintain a cult of personnality based on herself.
But this is why Blizzard must take that chance to develop them now that she’s gone.
True, but once Lor’themar was given his due in the story; I never looked at Sylvanas being deeply involved with Blood Elf lore again.
At the time, the “sexy elf” was probably something Blizzard wanted to market, just to make the Forsaken and Blood Elves more appealing; but long term - it’s done so much damage that the Naga avoided because the Naga were given independence from Azshara.
But so did Azshara, yet the Naga weren’t so heavily tied to her as the Forsaken were to Sylvanas.
The Forsaken should have had their “Lady Vashj” character and “Lady Naz’jar” character, just to give us something different and perhaps, see Forsaken who have more of an independent mind.
Having individuality makes for far better characters who you can agree with and disagree with, which should be better for the story.
precisely, i can forge pact of non aggression, but it doesn’t mean that i won’t demand something for it.
Peace can be profitable
You named 2. That’s plenty? No really why are you wasting my time pretending you have any idea what you are talking about.
Really? Monkeys build villages and use weapons to fight? You know that Planet of the Apes wasn’t a documentary, right?
Man the conflict is the only thing that keeps factions from being buddies and that’s not even working in some instances given that we have several Horde characters who are more interested in their relationship with the Alliance than their actual duty.
Yes and I told you that people who don’t care about the moral implications of any action they take are not good people. And you’ll find that the Forsaken aren’t typically wiping their rears with morality for the greater good but actually because it amuses them.
Hell no. There’s no waste. The waste would be having them renounce their unique characteristic in the playable race roster for what? To become some miserable things that do what exactly? Cry over their state constantly. Bollox to that. And that’s not even development that’s simply destroying them.
They have their own “communities” and are very social animals, they make primitive instruments.
I mean yeah there are no animals who build something complex irl (but actually ants and bees, they are insects tho), but average level of intelligence for various animals in warcraft is far higher than that of irl one.
Murlocs are treated as animals all around: they are either object of slaughter if they start becoming dangerous, object of study, or used as food.
There are no diplomatic relations with them, and their bloodthirst isn’t bound to their evilness, they are just very primitive and wild.
I guess it’s more fantasy thing murlocs are savage tribe of weird creatures, and the only thing that separates them from something like dinosaurs from stranglethon vale is the fact that they are “kinda but not really” intelligent, and that they are comic relief, mascot and punching bug for newbies.
I agree with it being really interesting, and more nuanced than simply ‘evil zombies’. And yet, effectively, that’s what they have been, and for good reason. Undeath in WoW’s Azeroth has meant being cut off from positive emotions, or feeling them much less intense than the living do. It makes perfect sense morality is not that interesting to them anymore, both from their experiences and their emotional state (or lack of it).
I’ve always seen them as somewhat to very sociopathic, depending on the individual. Those retaining a strong hold on warmer emotions like compassion or empathy have been exceptions and it seems it’s more through their willpower and retention of who they were in life than that it is innate in undeath to be fully capable of this.
They don’t play by the rules of the living. They don’t have to and they don’t want to. And I agree very much with Sander that trying to undo this will not make the Forsaken better or more interesting. They’ll hit a dead end (no pun intended) narratively in a way, even if they still get the limelight.
You can restore most of it through magic means, undead light priests are slowly restoring their senses, it causes them pain because their bodies irreparably damaged but i think the most powerful priests can manage it too, especially when light undead are canon.
Yes, it’s about forsaken’s will too, will of the forsaken if you will. TBH their sociopathy isn’t just only something natural, sylvanas’s cult cultivated it too.
As i said their status as member of the horde was very plot dependant, if they’ll continue this way after sylvanas dead and scourge eradicated it’ll feel like farce and artificial hold of status quo.
We don’t know which way forsaken will go with light undead thing, as far as we know light can be our enemy in future expansions
They are, at least, Calia is. Are there more? Haven’t played horde the last few years and skipped SL so there’s a big chance I missed a bunch!
What I found interesting about Forsaken who used the Light was not just that it gave them pain, but it restored physical sensations. The taste of death in your mouth. The maggots squirming in your body. Quite morbid to contemplate how that must be, but still fascinating.
With Calia they undid some of it all being intensely tragic. You can be a happy, wholesome, compassionate undead! But then what is the price you pay? What is the trade off? How are you different from what you were before? It’s a lukewarm take with very little possibility for stories that revolve around what it means to be Forsaken.
They’ve done this with more races so it’s not a surprise but it’s removing flavour and stark contrast which makes everything stand out less. Personally I think those strong contrasts added a lot to WoW, it was part of its character, both in the art and the design of the races.
And you may be perfectly right they may end up giving the Forsaken an interesting twist with the Light and where that story will go. But I’ll still prefer them dark myself. We’ve already got a bunch of rabid Light worshippers 
I haven’t done this questline too, because i’m not in mood to touch anything bfa related, but it’s one of the things that made me interested, and i do know short summarise
But light undead aren’t numerous aren’t they? It’s solution to suffering but without answer on how to do it, they can’t mass produce/convert light undead, this storyline is not finished.
True. The problem is, for me at least and I’ve gotten the same impression from disgruntled Forsaken players, that Calia is seemingly the ‘better, improved version’. What undeath should be like. But it’s in stark contrast with what the Forsaken were from the start, and why those players got attached to this race in the first place. Calia removed the foundation of that particular flavour, especially once Blizzard got a bit too enthusiastic with trying to fit her in, and removing Sylvanas from the scene.
From an rp point of view I can say the Forsaken scene was very lively for years and years, and it has pretty much fizzled out since all this has happened. It’s not where these players wanted the Forsaken to go, the development was quite alien and odd compared to the original mindset for them.
I’ll contemplate what kind of narrative development I would have liked better instead to maybe illustrate better what I mean. Maybe something pops up, I’m not a diehard Forsaken player tho so I may come up dry 
I mean, it really fits, forsaken life is miserable, they were ressurected as fodder: zombie and ghouls, stark contrast is death knights who are scourge elite and have their bodies intact with super powers attached.
I don’t think that calia particularly made undead less exciting, it’s more that sylvanas was prime cornerstone and the only developed lore about forsaken, it’s not hard to notice that everything forsaken concerned always involves “sylvanas this, sylvanas that, glory to banshee queen!”, while all other things are very underdeveloped as Kaiine mentioned earlier in this thread.
If orcs lose something plotwise they have other hundred things to have inspiration from, calia doesn’t have lore baggage that sylvanas and her cult had
Oh yes, and I agree that there are many potential stories that could have been told and can still be told about the Forsaken that could be very interesting. But personally I’d enjoy it a great deal more if they can keep some of their darkness, their particular sense of humour, their cynicism. The writers shouldn’t try to make it ok, fundamentally their situation is rather crap (understatement). And yet they exist on Azeroth. Trying to sugarcoat it and removing the understandable rough edges is doing both that objective tragedy, and the strength it takes to accept your situation and deal with it, a disservice imo.