Item Upgrades - A Compromise to Titanforging

Skip to halfway down if you want the solution, I’m just outlining the history of the system and WHY we got to where we are today, as well as Blizzard’s own words on why the system has continued to stick around despite player feedback.

When Blizzard first put in Warforging into the game, it was known as Thunderforging, it would apply to select pieces of raid items and would happen more often in 25 Man Throne of Thunder, this was designed to try improve the 25 Man Raiding scene by praying more people would delve into it in order to get better rewards. Ever since then we’ve seen the system grow, change and evolve, to Warlords where it remained relatively unchanged, just a small name change and then in Legion, where they completely overhauled the game’s loot design around it. Not only could your item go from a +6 Random Upgrade, but you could expect to have it go…well, as high as the cap, +40, +50 in some cases.

This ultimately devalued the effort:reward ratio which is so important in a game like WoW. There was now a chance, however low that chance might be, to acquire high level pieces, sometimes above that of Mythic, from LFR, World Quests, Normal and more typically and less rarely: Heroic raids.

The difference in Heroic and Mythic cannot be understated, the two difficulties are 15 Item Levels apart on paper, but due to Titanforging and so on, a lucky Heroic player may end up with better gear than a Mythic raider, which is completely ridiculous. But even if he isn’t so lucky, the chance he could even get one or two items at a Mythic equivalent feels absurd. The amount of effort required to do Mythic compared to Heroic is huge, and that can be seen just by how many people complete the Mythic raid compared to the Heroic version.

Yes, on average, a Mythic raider has a higher item level, but there’s a -chance-, a chance that shouldn’t be there in my opinion, that the Heroic raider will have one almost as high if not as high as the Mythic player.

So, Blizzard has also told us the main reasons for Titanforging to be in the game.

  • It creates a chance of excitement when attaining loot.
  • It allows guilds to have continious gear progression even after the tier is completed.
  • It allows people to get upgrades from trivial/lesser content than what they are geared for.

How does Item Upgrades fix these issues which Blizzard has outlined?

For the first one, well, hopefully loot should be exciting enough on its own, and if it isnt? Well, a few suggestions would be guarenteed sockets, extra things like ‘Voidtouched’ which would make transmogging that item cheaper, indestructible, and the like, but item upgrades also have room for Blizzard’s warforging escapades.

As for the second point, it allows continuous progression as a Valor Cap would enforce that only 2 items could be upgraded fully per week, (4 upgrades), a 1000 Cap for 250 Valor per piece. This would mean that over the course of a tier, the average item level of the group would increase, even after progression is done, as players have the valor upgrades to work towards.

As for the third point, no Item Upgrades do not fix this issue, but I also don’t personally believe it is something that should be fixed. Lesser and Trivial content should have other reasons to go back into them, AP was a big one during Legion which hasn’t been the case in BfA, as AP from dungeons was massively nerfed, but in general, cosmetics, crafting materials and so on should be the focus for lesser content once you have outgeared it.

How would the system work?

Ideally, similar to how it worked in the past but with some modern tweaks and additions to allow Blizzard a compromise and still give them a feeling of ‘excitement’ when you get a Warforge. or Titanforge.

The system would work as follows:

Valor Cap:

  • 1000 Valor Cap Per Week
    – This cap could be attained fairly quickly, by doing a variety of things, but a hard cap is neccessary as we do not want to repeat the issue during late WoD where players would feel obliged to do EVERY Mythic Dungeon, EVERY LFR, and EVERY Daily Heroic, as there was no cap. The cap should be available by a Mythic raider by doing all of his Mythic raid per week, and maybe one or two extra things like an emissary or a M+. An heroic raider may have to do more things outside of raiding, a dungeoneer would get more valor based on the Keystone he achieved at the end of his run (It would not be random). A casual world quester might not reach the cap, unless they decide to delve into dungeon content (Heroic or Mythic) or LFR/Normal. A cap is essential to this system however, as it paces out the upgrade system to allow Blizzard the progression throughout the tier.

Upgrades:

  • 2 Upgrades per item, for a total of +6 Item Levels.
    – +3 Item Level per upgrade is important, as this means the gap between a fully improved Heroic piece, and a baseline Mythic piece, would still be 9 item levels. This is important, as for many classes, a 5 item level difference usually isn’t enough for an upgrade if the secondary stats in play are wrong, but 9 or 10? Usually good enough.
    — It allows the system to also be expandable, allowing Blizzard to add 2 extra upgrade slots without having any items cross between difficulty borders. This would hopefully only be used in a minor patch at the end of an expansion though, like 7.3.5 or 8.3.5.

RNG.

  • Each Item would have a chance to Warforge 1/2, or Titanforge 2/2.
    – This would give a random factor, as a compromise with Blizzard, but also allows players to counteract bad luck by putting in more effort and getting their valor cap each week. If you are somewhat lucky, you might be able to skip a 250 valor investment into your gear, if you are very lucky, you can skip a 500 valor investment. A more deterministic loot system would come out of this, with a sprinkling of RNG to allow players to feel like they are sometimes given a bonus, but not something that is completely required, and it would only save them a little bit of time and effort, rather than feeling frustrating and anti-player.

The figures would work out at around 2-3 months to upgrade your full character up to the max, which I believe is a reasonable timeframe and allows the content elongation which Blizzard seems to want. It also gives players a long-ish term goal to work towards every week, and also gives the players a sense of feeling finished with their character, which is more likely to open up alt play too, as less people feel the need to farm M+ on their mains in a desperate plea to acquire a titanforged trinket.

TL;DR-

Allow Item Upgrades back.
Give us a valor cap each week.
Let us upgrade each item 2 times to a max of +6 item level to preserve the difficulty-difficulty borders and effort:reward ratio.
Have this process take 2-3 months to complete to give players a sense of feeling finished each week and then finally at the end of the tier.

I’d love to hear suggestions, thoughts on this system and anything else. Thanks.

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Lucky heroic raider can end up better geared than a mythic raider?

Or should we rephrase:

Impossibly lucky heroic raider (read: he’s so lucky he just won the loterry- in 7 different countries, at the same time) can end up better geared than an incredibly unfortunate (read: he is so unlucky that when he goes to piss, he pisses on himself-everytime) mythic raider.

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There is a chance, yes, hence CAN, I also said it was extremely unlikely.

I’m only 3 item levels away from a friend of mine who is in a top 100 guild worldwide. I’ve done 3 Mythic bosses twice, The gap should be closer to 12-15 item levels, but it isn’t.

It’s not about being overall having gear better than that of a Mythic raider, it’s specific pieces, plus the feeling of being “almost as good so I wont bother” which many people feel like, including myself. I only do Mythic now because I want the challenge and the feeling of it, but not actually any of the rewards, because the gear isn’t much of an upgrade in most slots. (Bar my gloves, obviously.)

You are 438. For context.
Idk what mythic raider is at 441, but if he is, its some sick combo of lower level items with outsized power, like select 430 trinkets from the raid, which you just have to have even if you have 445 tf in bags from the raid as well.

Though I’m more inclined towards this version: your bag ilvl is 3 points below his equip level.

I don’t think that anyone besides min/maxers and mythic raiders would bother to farm a +2 item upgrade. I know i wouldn’t because i wouldn’t even see a huge difference. So even though I prefer deterministic systems to RNG ones i don’t think that this will solve any problems.
As you pointed out warforging started in MoP, that was the first expansion where another raid difficulty was added (then flex now normal). The problem that titanforging tries to solve is the huge discrepancy in item level that is created in every tier due to having too many raid difficulties. So for me the solution is one : remove one difficulty and specifically normal since it doesn’t really serve a purpose.

The overall gearing isn’t what is too concerning. It’s the chance that a heroic player can attain any sort of mythic gear without doing Mythic, its the chance that a normal player can attain heroic gear without doing heroic, a +2 player acquiring +10 gear, et cetera.

Yes, it’s unlikely, very unlikely for huge titanforging to happen, but it IS possible, and I don’t think I should be getting upgrades from world quests like I did during BoD, despite being in raid gear at the time, I acquired a ring from a world quest.
Or during Legion, where I acquired a 925 Best in slot chestpiece from a +6, when the max ilvl was 425. That shouldnt be possible.

It’s a +6 item upgrade, per item. That makes a pretty major impact for your entire gearset. It could also be bumped to +12 in a future patch, (like 7.3.5 or 8.3.5).

Plus, people did item upgrades in MoP, and it was a +4 upgrade then, so?

Also yeah, 4 difficulties is a bit much and I wouldnt mind if they scrapped one, but that isnt really the topic. Though it would help in reducing item level bloat throughout an expansion.

This is actually the problem that they try to solve. And it won’t be solved until something is done. Take MoP for example, you had 4 raid difficulties with 12 levels difference, world bosses, heroic scenarios and crafting gave you heroic level gear and you also had the possibility to upgrade. This way you could keep gearing up in a more balanced way and you avoided the raid/mythic+ or gtfo design we have now.
Right now, without titanforging ,gearing would be done for most players within 2 weeks. I don’t think this is something that a sub based RPG could afford, just my opinion though.

Valor Upgrades would last 2-3 months, and the amount of gear is a different issue, it can be reduced and probably should be.

If i speak for myself, i wouldn’t bother to farm whatever i had to for 2 months just to get +6 ilvl overall upgrade, it really doesn’t worth the effort. Benthic gear actually is a good system, in 2 months time you could go from 385 to 425 and you feel you are progressing.

You also aren’t really a raider, nor really the target, but the valor comes passively though content, you don’t have to go out of your way to acquire it.

Does titanforging keep you playing longer? Mission accomplished.

Why ‘should’? Where is it stated that that is a rule?
I feel like there doesn’t have to be any gap, but of course there WILL be because higher difficulty content just drops higher ilvl gear on a way more consistent and dependable level (which is fine). So imo there’s no need to artificially create an invisible border that one cannot cross gear-wise.

It’s just not needed. There will always be a ‘natural gap’. Why do people feel this gap needs to be ‘so and so’ long? :man_shrugging:t3:

Because it’s an RPG and it makes sense for there to be a gap between the gear given from a higher, harder difficulty of raiding compared to a lower difficulty.

And like I said; there IS a gap.
So why get so caught on how ‘wide’ it is?

Because a gap that is too small makes the higher content less appealing, a larger gap makes it more appealing, it’s about a balance, right now, that isn’t met imo.

No I am not a raider but if you plan to please only the raiders i am afraid this game’s future doesn’t look so bright. Raiders have always been a small portion and wow became so popular because it always gave you an alternative to progress your character. Unfortunately, ever since WoD this has been wiped and this is reflected in the player numbers shrinking. I guess if you want to retain a healthy number of players which is a necessity for an MMORPG you shouldn’t just focus on raiders.

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From an RPG stand point your suggestion would be completely inappropriate. Also there is no RPG rule on how the reward structure should work, so maybe refrain to use this argument when you think it suits your purpose.

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Having a larger gap makes the lower content less appealing. A smaller gap makes it more appealing. Why do you think higher content and its players are more important in that regard?

This is an mmorpg with many different kinds of players. So why do you think its okay to put the happiness of a particular group of players above the happiness of another?

2 Likes

no more titanforge = no more sub from me and many others, only trolls and ELITISTS asked for tf to be removed, because the couldnt stand the fact that others can get the same ILEVEL as they have
So yea, simple fact tf goes bye, my sub goes bye

It’s fairly common for heroic gear to get +15 ilvls (or more ofc.) because heroic is ridiculously easier than mythic, therefore more people clear it and it has more chances to titanforge to higher than mythic ilvl.

So yes, titanforging shouldn’t exist in an mmorpg. I’d be totally fine if we only had warforging that increased ilvl by 5 or 6 ilvl and for sockets to be brought back into gear.

Benthic gear brings down ilvl by a lot, as they cap at 425 ilvl and if you’re serious about raiding mythic then you’re gonna have that equipped.