With the way this ability currently is on the PTR where it synergizes heavily with other spells in the same way that TV/FV does, I can already predict that our survivability is going to be way over the top while not sacrificing too much dps for it.
Besides JV we’re actually getting some insane offhealing/survivability as well:
30 % DR on a 1 minute cd
100k~ shield on a 1 minute cd
consistent 2% healing from crusader strikes
party-wide 3% healing from divine storm spam.
Powered up WoG when falling below 30% hp
We’re going to be the tankiest spec in the game without JV, but JV makes it so that unless we get hit by a 1 shot spell we’re virtually unkillable. If this goes live I think nerfs will be inevitable. Realistically blizzard should significantly nerf the healing from JV.
They have AMS which is very similar to our shield, except it blocks magic and has a slightly lower cd. I would argue AMS is stronger than our shield, but they’re similar.
Alot of their DR’s need to be talented into and none of them are as strong as having 30% DR on a 1 min cd.
On top of that we have bubble and lay on hands as extra defensives and we can also keep ourselves alive with WoG.
JV is better than death strike in every single way.
With the rework we will have party-wide healing with divine storm that heals for ALOT and we’ll have a pseudo cheat death as well.
Yes but it is a dps loss doing it that way.
We have to use it that way but the optimal highest dps you can do is you using the shield of vengance to burst damage on the enemy.
AMS is the same strength but it also has “preventing application of harmful magical effects.”
This is massive.
And using 1 more talent point brings it from 1min cooldown to 40second cooldown and it absorbs 40% more.
First off all Shield of vengance is a talent.
Second of all 30% DR on Divine protection is a talent it is a 20% DR without the talent.
Also Both Divine protection AND Shield of Vengance is 1.5min cooldown abilities you Talent into Unbreakable Spirit to get them to 1min cooldowns and also to get bubble from 5min to 3.5min and it also makes Lay on hands from 10min to 7min cooldown.
You will most of the time probably pick this talent but it is still a talent.
JV heals for the damage it deals yes this is strong but it also means you have to hit.
This will generate a lot of overhealing and not so much effective healing as you think it will do.
Death strike heals you for 25% of damage you take this is just a passive 25% DR when you take damage. it has a MINIMUM of 7% of your max HP as healing it will ALWAYS heal you for 7% of your max HP.
And yet yes JV is too strong of an ability i do not disagree there.
But it is not that far away from death strike as you seem to be making it.
5min cooldown 3.5min with talents.
7min cooldown a Talent. Both bubble and Lay on hands share cooldowns in that you get forbearance for 30seconds if you use them.
This negates 100% healing JV will do because they both costs holy power and on top of that it means you do way lower damage.
Again does not function on top of JV it is either or you do not get both.
It is also talents you are talking about.
Dk get AMZ a raidwide healer cooldown (yes it is much weaker than in the past) While it lasts it absorbs 20% of damage taken it has a 2min cooldown Holy paladin Aura mastery is a 3min cooldown for 12% absorb.
And AMZ can be talented into 30% absorb though it is not normally taken i understand.
But one thing you do not get is that number tuning has yet to happen to ret paladin on the PTR numbers right now is far from final.
Even the talent tree is not Final.
Also are you really complaining that one of the worst survivable specs in the game according to blizzard themselves is becoming strong in survivability?
And to be very clear with wings up and critically striking the target dummy i am getting max 21% heal from JV on the PTR that is too strong but it depends on the situation on a raid fight Dks will regularly get the 25% heal from death strike.
But the clue that the ability is not finished on the PTR is that there is no damage value on the tooltip on the PTR it is not something you actually should compare to anything yet.
The numbers will change on it.
There are fights where you use it on cd for dps, but honestly it’s so little dps over a fight that it’s barely worth mentioning. Calling it a dps cd seems a bit disingenuous to me. Especially on high keys where certain mechanics can one shot you and you need the shield to survive.
Yeah for sure, like I said AMS is probably stronger than shield of vengeance.
These are all talents you take 100% of the time, you can’t even path around it on the ptr.
It is, this is our main spender, we do not lose dps by using it and it’s not reactive. We simply press this button and stay alive. That is way stronger than what death strike does.
Point being? You never use lay on hands and bubble at the same time, that makes no sense. Unless you’re using lay on hands on someone else.
I was talking about our survivabilty being strong outside of JV.
DK’s can barely take AMZ, they don’t have spare talent points at all and they have to sacrifice other defensives to take it.
The thing is though, the spell has been this way for a long time, the difference is that now it interacts with our other spells making it way closer to TV.
I’m not necessarily complaining, I’m going to main paladin after 10.0.7, but I’ve extensively playtested pala on the PTR and I can say with confidence that we’re completely over the top in PvE in terms of survivablity.
I currently have 310k hp on the PTR and with wings up I’m critting for like 130k, that’s almost half of my hp and it’s an ability I can spam. It’s like having a permanent enraged regeneration.
The thing I fear with this is that if pala releases with its current survivability we’ll see groups of 1 tank and 4 ret paladins because with their healing they dont need a healer.
130k consistently? You dont do you and thats the problem here. Its great with buffs and debuffs on target but not really something that happens when you are on defence now is it?
Its great heals when you are on the offencive with CDs but is that WHEN you need them? Our defencive heals are tied to our offenceive CDs and thats a problem.
The point was that you always take the talents on DK anyway talking about how it is talent points for DK is kinda irrelevant as it is also talent points on paladin.
You do not want to use WoG if you can avoid it because it is a pure dps loss as you literally are losing your Spender ability to cast it.
If you can avoid casting it that is always always better and you will always be looking at not casting it.
Killing the mobs faster is almost always better then using a gcd and 3 holy power on a WoG heal.
Unholy literally takes AMZ for dungeons.
It is also used in Raid.
Frost also literally takes AMZ for dungeons and Raids.
How are you critting almost 2x what i am doing?
Max i was seeing was 82K inside cooldowns outside of cooldowns without crit as low as 28k
I got 310k hp but you do have 10%more mastery then me.
Divine stom heals for 3% of max hp and you need 3 holy power to cast it.
If you can get off divine storm 1 time every 2-3seconds that is literally the passive healing several classes had in the past.
It is far from as strong as you think it is.
Consecration on live right now is something in the range of 0.5 or 1% per second.
But i need to stress The ability justicar’s Vengance do NOT have a damage number on it on the ptr right now and what we are seeing damage wise is the old one that did very close to the same damage as Final verdict.
Tooltip right now on the PTR
"Justicar’s Vengeance
Talent
3 Holy Power 8 yd range
Instant
Requires Paladin
Requires level 45
Requires Melee Weapon
Focuses Holy energy to deliver a powerful weapon strike that deals [Holystrike][Holy] damage, and restores health equal to the damage done.
Damage is increased by 50% when used against a stunned target."
It is very clear that blizzard is changing this talent right now.
The ability literally has Zero damage on the tooltip it used to have a number there not even a week ago.
"Focuses Holy energy to deliver a powerful weapon strike that deals (140% of Attack power) Holy damage, and restores health equal to the damage done.
Damage is increased by 50% when used against a stunned target."
is the tooltip from live
It was just a copy paste of this tooltip on the PTR until it got changed to holystrike damage + holy.
Then it got changed to the one it is now where it has no numbers in the tooltip whatsoever.
They converted it from doing holy dmg to holystrike dmg and not done with tuning yet, thats about all we can take from it.
Atm its Final verdict (and divine storm) that lags behind by still remaining as holy dmg only while the rest are (can be) converted to the 2 new forms.
Edit: Nvm just saw that Blades of light can convert FV into Holystrike yet still think its very lagging behind JV
That is the point i think is very important to think about here.
If you think an ability is not going to have a tooltip that shows damage numbers on a damage ability i question what you think.
The fact that it has no tooltip tells me they are working on the ability right now because it used to have a tooltip that showed damage.
The damage it does right now is the exact same as FV and i can not believe it will stay like that when tuning is done.
I thought the same during Alpha/beta… yet here we are with its base dmg doing more while “conduit addons” is what makes FV better in dmg (besides the proc and range).
FV is the choise node VS JV… if that remains the case they will do the same or near the same dmg. FV will remain the slight better option for dmg and JV for survival, thats about it.
Nah lol, during wings. On average JV does like 60k for me overall after 20 min of hitting the dummy. But my point still stands, a spammable ability doing that amount of healing is absurd and you’d be hard pressed to find a spec currently in the game that can heal that much. Even during downtime when you don’t have your modifiers and wings the spell still deals like 30k+ dmg non crit.
Unless something’s radically changed from when I last played DK they have a hard time getting all the defensive talents they want.
True, on live you kinda have to use WoG to stay alive on certain bosses though. On the PTR you might as well remove WoG from your bars.
Last time I played frost I literally couldn’t take AMZ in M+ because I needed to spec into the utility talents which constricted my choices alot.
Should have mentioned I’m using Final Reckoning/DnD and I always pair it with 1 minute wings and im consistently dealing 100k+ crits which with JV also heals me for that amount. I’m also specced into holystrike, if the holystrike build ends up being inferior to the radiant build the power of JV will obviously go down as well.
Think i was more wrong then right here. As it does lower base dmg then FV its worth crumbles combined with the healing nerf. 6% makes it heal less then WoG, tbh i dont know how %based heals are effected by dampening so it might be decent in that regard.
So in terms of survivability are we actually better in PTR then live? It really feels like a ±0 here. Same with mobility, is it actually better then what we had in SL? I expected atleast be a lvl above SL mobility. GCD yay? Still 3 points.
Really feels like we gained nothing tbh, well the button bloat is gone but thats about it.
Oh and Blinding light CC breaks on all our dmg expect dots and Consecration… sigh
Bit unsure how this one goes live, atm the absorb stacks up to 120k, when continuing hitting target at that point it for some reason drops to 70k and this is only when hitting dummy that doesnt hit back.
Absorb increases with about 3k from a normal CS hit and 10k from HoW crit.
Edit: Wake gave me 22k absorb
Against who, warriors?
Edit: Yhea keep forgetting about the AoE part here like some DH attacks and other Rets Wake
Yes this is good but the time it took them to actually do this gets them no points.
This in pvp? I get 31k heals with normal WoG
Dawn x1 37k
Dawn x2 44k
Dawn x2 + Wings 52k
Healing hands at best increases that with 50% so 76k… Why not slap on a DP procc for an extra 10% so say 84k making it a 168k crit if all the above is done, the second heal will be for 37-74k if wings are still up and no dampening and MS is on you.
Was a bit harder to test with healing hands as atm ppl were trying the tanking dummy
WoG itself havent been buffed at all and there are plenty of times in pvp on live that when i heal at 10-20% health my health dont go above 20-30%
JV is always 24k (with my gear 404k health) unless you take the health trinket that also increases SoV Sheilding and other % based heals.
JoL is 2k heal per proc
Crusade’s Reprieve (thought this was nerfed to 1% max health but says 2% in talent in ptr, anyway never seen this one work) If 1% should heal for 4k and 8k if 2%.
Lightforged blessing is 12k but if speced JV this will only heal if speced into Empyrian Legacy and heal once every 20 sec.
Golden path ticks for 600 and can crit.
Overall yes survivability has increased but at the same time took a heavy blow with what JV did prior. BUT now it will always heal 24k… old JV only healed on actual dmg done so if target had only 3k health it would only heal 3k and not count absorb either.
I rarely pvp, Ive done a few duels on the PTR, but thats about it. I can imagine dampening will hurt us quite a bit. ES not being dispellable sounds nice.
I did take healing hands. It synergizes nicely with the “cheat death” WoG. I doubt you’d ever take that talent vs priests tho because of mind games.
I don’t know to what point it is worth taking the JV in the solo shuffle with the dampening and the deadly, since what matters in that mode is to make the maximum possible dps, having the necessary survivability. More than anything because the JV equals in normal arenas if you take advantage of it more, because the dampening rises slower, but in the solo shuffle possibly seek to maximize the dps, sacrificing a bit of survivability.
The biggest problem I see right now with retry in pvp is losing the slow pvp talents, and especially the one that made you immune to purge freedom. Possibly against rangeds that can take away my freedom, we’re going to have a much worse time, we’ll be dummys against certain classes.
Yes. That was the goal. Paladins have an armored to the teeth with the heaviest, best plate armor, infused with holy powers type of fantasy.
Btw DK’s work the same way, and it’s been this way for a long time for them. Deathstrike’s healing scales infinitely with their damage taken, so as long as it’s not a oneshot, they’re practically unkillable, as they can top themselves with 1 GCD, for what, 45 or 50 runic power? And on top of that they can immune fears and charms with lichborne, stuns with icebound, almost any magic effect with AMS, and they cannot be slowed below 70% movespeed and can’t be affected by pushback effects with deaths advance on.