Lego/spec or both garbo? :D

Community General Discussion
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Imagine playing a spec with 485 itemlvl and legendary axe in your hand and have a DH friend with the same 485 itemlvl then sim them both to find that you do 249k in dungeon slice and your DH friend is simmed to do 320k :smiley:
The only significant difference between our gear is that I have the lego axe and he has the myth augury trinket.

The lego was garbo but it just got buffed. The devs just dont care about balancing the game? It feels awful to have a lego and have such a huge difference still in the favor of the demon hunter :smiley:
This is the result from a ret paladin and also simmed a warrior friend with a lego axe and the situation is just as bleak for them.

DH is ranked as top 1 currently dps wise for m+ for example but is this really just the neglegence of the devs not giving two you know what about the balance in the game?! It looks insane to have this big of a difference between dps specs, they undertuned the melee specs that can wield the lego to compensate for obtaining one or what happened here? :smiley:
Iā€™ll check a dk too later but none of my friends got a lego on DK yet and I dont want to sim some random guy. Anyways I suspect for DK the situation is probably the same as for warrior or paladin.

The lego costs 250-300k gold + crafting fee if you dont have friends or alts to do the crafting of the items required. The questline is kinda boring to be honest but that is a topic for another day. After spending time and gold on it it feels terrible to have the lego axe :smiley: and as far as I know they just buffed it.
My DH friend is not the best ever but he know what he is doing, I manage to keep the idea rotation up fairly well and the real numbers are closer for whatever reason - maybe the axe buff is not accounted for in the sim website because the buff just happened now - but still I have a hard time to keep up my DH friend.

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the lego was garbo ā€¦
the ā€˜ā€˜legoā€™ā€™ just got a buff . warriors are doing good, retri is awful especially on ST . your gear might not be bis and his gear might be . ilvl doesnā€™t always mean good gear.
dh is still op + this game has balance issues that i agree

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Ret is anything but awful. They have good ST and AoE dmg the only problem is its one or the other.

But yes, the lego sucks and the balancing around it sucks even harder.

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I have bis gear apart from 2 items and the missing trinket would account for the dps difference. The lego buff is not as impactful as you would think in my opinion.
Also the lock-in design blocking you from using your abilities is a terrible choice from the devs, with certain affixes on higher keys you can die to that even when you are trying to time it carefully :smiley:

It should be a simple aoe not blocking you from using your abilities so you can do your own rotation and on top of that have some extra aoe every 2 minutes. I cannot imagine any melee player who likes this channeling effect locked in :smiley:

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Having to think a whole 3 seconds ahead must be very distressing for melee brains.

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is that why itā€™s at the bottom of raid logs :blush:

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I agree, Ret would be fine if it shouldnt sacrifice one or the other to have one of them good. That is why Iā€™m fine with raid damage even without lego because most fight are mainly st, but for m+ you cant run pure aoe build because your damage will be severly lacking on bosses so you have some passive cleave or stronger aoe builds with ā€œdecentā€ st compared to pure aoe build but in general if you pick on it hurts the other too much and thats a no win scenario for m+ where you need both :smiley:

I dont expect to be top 1 dps but lagging far behind the top specs in m+ with almost full biv 485 + lego axe feels kinda bad :smiley:

Well anyways I have a solution, since Iā€™m gearing my DH amongst others once I get above ~480 Iā€™m sure Blizz will nerf it haha :smiley:

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Im not surprised you dont understand this but those fancy raid dps rankings are irrelevant to most players/guilds.

Very likely :sweat_smile:

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Dungeon slice has no real world application, so it doesnā€™t matter much. If you care about seeing real world performance you can check mythic logs and see real world example of what is happening.

  • Pure ST: Best example for this (especially for melee) is volcoross.
    In this boss, DH is the LAST of the lego specs, with Arms, fury, frost dk, udk, and retri being above them. He is not bad, sitting in the mid of the pack, but all of the above specs outperform DH.

  • Low target cleave:
    You can see this type of fights in Larodar and igira. Generally dh starts to shine in aoe scenarios, and the only spec form the above that you can see outperforming him is fury, which can do really well in cleave fight below 5 targets.

  • High target cleave:
    Here DH shines, since it is the only spec from the above with heavy aoe, apart from unholy. You can check this in Gnarlroot or Tindral (heroic, since mythic parses are really few), and fyrakk heroic.

  • Heavy Aoe:
    There are no fights with sustained high target aoe, although I would pressume we will see some of those in MDI with probably UDK taking the lead, with DH close behind.

So generally, you take the one thing that DHs are good in their damage profile and just focus on that.

Now concerning the lego:

  1. Its impact is pretty small, less than 10k for most specs in ST (which is less than 5%), being way less relevant in aoe.
  2. Spec balance is made with the lego in mind, since it is designed that way that most players that want it will have it in a few weeks.

Unfortunately ret has the choice of either casting ST OR AoE finisher, which makes the spec kind of bad with cleave, where DH shines (and also being target capped).

On the flip side, I think that you are safe with DH, since there are no new reworks on the horizon, so no new specs to be op.

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So You think this game is all about raid and M+ and pvp dont matter much then?!
I bet if blizzard remove insane loots from Raid so people from M+ and such are not forced to go there and they can get their BIS from their own favorite content
then Many guild find themselves Having no player to Raid with them and die slowly.

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I did not say that. Sorry for not making it clear:

I am talking about overall balance.

PvP balance is entirely different, and from what i can see, the legendary is nerfed and probably might not be even bis (though i am not sure, i do not pvp). Although even pvpers can easily get it in due time.

As for bis loot, this season has been pretty good, since you can easily get your bis from heroic, and it is VERY close to the mythic BiS item. So if people wanna do m+, can do it pretty easily without worrying much about raid.

Now for pvp, I do not know much, but I am aware that they are balancing things differently and pve has almost no impact on that part (all pve items are nerfed to oblivion, including tier sets).

Edit: also, even if you could get your bis, from m+, raids would be fine, since they offer the best experience this game has to offer. Frankly i am more worried about m+ being too ā€œrequiredā€ (since you 100% CANNOT raid without doing m+).

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Pointless to argue with you if you make up lies.

warcraftlogs dot
com/zone/statistics/35#sample=7&dataset=90&boss=2737&difficulty=4

If you look up the past week 90th percentile for mythic and heroic the numbers are naturally closer ut DH is above ret paladin, frost dk,
arms warrior,
fury warrior is only above DH with 1k - 1k - dps unholy dk is the only one who is on the top on the 6. spot but still only with 7k lead on DH
ā€¦this is on Heroic 90th percentile ā€¦and when we talking about numbers in the 220-240k range 6-7k is not much of a differenceā€¦

On Mythic DH, ret paladin, arms warrior are all all together within 1k difference
fury warrior has a ~6k dps lead on them, frost dk 7k lead and unholy dk 13k lead.
People already have the lego ā€¦like me. And its not super rare but quite rare. If you happen to have it you know there are full raids farming superbloom and rares for material so you would have first hand knowledge that the lego indeed drops quite a few times across the servers ā€¦sure there are many ppl who were unlucky and didnt get it yet but there are people running around with it already who are contributing to these chartsā€¦

Many bosses have some adds during the fight which favors DH and also requires high mobility which again favors DH in most situations.
On for M+ you cant ignore the fact that you dream single target scenario which we barely have any of wont happen in m+ and DH will have a 60-70k lead on the melee dps with same itemlvl+legoā€¦ how is this fair in your book is beyond me.

Also ignoring actual data from sims is a very weird stance from you. That is actual data and not something based on your opinion or how you felt in a dungeon where you had many variables we wouldnt know of and possible itemlvl differences.
I used real data to make a comparison, you can argue that its not perfect and there is room for errors but if a spec has a 15% lead over others or even more in certain cases ā€¦even with some errors if we take away 3 or even 5% of that the remaining gap is waaay too much.
Why? Because most people who look at the charts will pick ppl based on that ā€¦and they have every right to do so. They are not evil or dumb for it ā€¦they want a smooth easy run so they rather go with dps from the top 5-6 spot then pick dps from the bottom 6ā€¦
This leads to a very bad player experience since many ppl are solo players now doing pug runs because Blizz for some reason started to cater to hypercasuals and solo players in an MMO ā€¦they pretty much managed to kill the MMO part and its kinda a solo player game now where you play near/around others but not ā€œwith otherā€. People dont even queue up because of the increasingly toxic community that bashes everyone for every mistake they make and ignore the bottom half of the dps specs, the bottom 2 of healers and bottom 2 of tanks when they form groups ā€¦or they scold them if they end up in a group with them and things are going slower.

I tend to help ppl in a community who are anxious to do dungeons with random ppl for this very reason. Most of them since they themselves are not toxic decided to simply ignore the chat function and not use it anymore. Is this something that should happen in an MMO with a healthy playerbase and caring devs? Ofc not.

The lego should be an extra on top of your gear and not something that the devs accounted for so they made the classes weak ā€¦using your words " 1. Spec balance is made with the lego in mind, since it is designed that way that most players that want it will have it in a few weeks."
Also you have no idea how fast will others get the lego ā€¦i dont even think the embers do anything, its probably just a fake item to make you feel better when you dont get the drop. If it would do anything they would be transparent about it like you get 2% perma increase or whatever so you would see the light at the end of the tunnel. Its clearly not a common drop and 2 months into a season a bunch of people still dont have it.
Do you think they will care 2 months from now? Everyone who is not hypercasual has 480+ itemlvl already - even on multiple toons in some cases - ā€¦by the time they would get the lego its kinda useless and pointless to sink 300k gold into it unless you want the achievement. Even if they buff it who cares? I didnt really care about it either anymore since I have the best gear I can have without doing full mythic raid runs which I could do but wont because its simply not worth the time and effort to do it. Iā€™m gearing alts now and do 8 20+ for vault/week and thats it. I couldnt care less about the lego at this point especially since it doesnt really give you a huge dmg boost ā€¦it doesnt even close the gap between you and a DH :smiley:

Ofc Iā€™m happy to have it so I can say it I have it but who cares at this point? They made the content so easy we mow it down within a month or two and then its done. By the time most of the other players will get the legendary drop it will be a useless junk only worth for having it to have an easier time leveling in the next expansion during your first 3 levels :smiley: then you would replace it with a green item.

It is amazing that after all these years Blizz devs still can fumble and drop the ball this hard on game design.

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I like how you accuse of making up lies, and bring up a completely different set of statistics. For ST I gave the example of Volcoross mythic across ALL percentiles. Yet you just bring up hc volcoross, in the 90th percentile. Weird but ok. Generally my point was that for ST most specs with the lego are better, but DH scales better with more adds past 4.

Oh sorry, I was not ignoring it, I 100% agree that the sim is correct, and in similar situations in the game, the dps would be close to that.

I was just pointing out that the numbers in dungeon slice sim are not that important, since m+ have WAY different profile (which oftentimes ends up helping the DH).

My only point is that the problem with DHs is not really the damage they are doing (which is good, but overstated with overall damage done data), but their survivability.

Their damage profiles seems inflated cause they have some good uncapped burst Aoe, which translates to good numbers in the meters, but not that much on time gain in the dungeons (which is a reason that rogues overtake them in some groups).

The real reasons they are brought (when letā€™s say warriors are not), is for their survivability. It is almost impossible for them to die to one shots, have REALLY good self sustain, and really good group defensives with darkness (which totally overshadows rallying cry/AMZ).

Again, I did not claim what you said above was false, it was just part of a more complex picture, and buffing the aoe capabilities of palas, dks, wars, would in no way make them overtake dhs.

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