You don’t have to link it twice, if you are refering to the one where it shows the item level and the ability upgrade?
That’s very vague at best. In Shadowlands:
A item rank 1 honor reward is lvl 175 Rare
A item rank 1 conquest reward is ilvl 195 Epic
So there is a 20 ilvl gap between them. Why? What content will reward 180, 185 and 190? There is a reason for that. Exactly like there was in BFA and Legion.
That is not an assumption of him, that’s a simple fact. But please continue to post like you’re an expert. So people who hardly do pvp are now the definition of casuals? Please continue to make more stuff up, it’s certainly amusing.
It’s not an ‘assumption’, it’s a numbers thing. The relative time required to get one’s gear in a viable state, especially MoP and WoD (and probably Cata too but memory is a bit hazy) was much, much shorter than what it takes currently.
In fact, you had blue AH-bought crafted PvP gear that made you more competitive in a PvP enviroment than getting to 450 with mediocre corruptions now would.
And you could fully grind the best possible PvP gear only via casual BGs too in a timeframe that compared to current game is still far more lenient, even if you didn’t do anything but random BGs.
In MoP, during S13, it took me maybe 4 hours to get a full honor cap on a character I was leveling, which I could then use to buy myself a weapon and 2 other pieces of PvP gear as soon as I dinged 90.
Viable startup gear that fast was very casual friendly.
Getting your ‘weekly cap’ back then was a much less arduous task aswell, (10 games, or 10 wins, I don’t remember which one) and you weren’t barred from high end gear because of your rating, or lack of it.
BUT they need to be the same ilvl as HC pve pieces (m+15 also needs to be at the same ilvl than HC raid). To make PvP gear actually bis for PvP the simplest solution is resil/pvp power, or if versa is the go to like in BFA, just increase the amount of versa on PvP gear and reduce it on pve.
You guys think that maybe it should be about the incentive rather than the gear going forward?
Like if we take conflict and strife essence for example.
Its pretty bis for a lot of speccs in pve as well as pvp.
Maybe the new system in shadowlands has to make it somewhat similar to this.
Not exactly of course because the whole essence and corruption system is horrendous imo but what I’m thinking is that the idea may be right.
Instead of focusing on gear, they should put something else that SHOULD make both pvpers and pvers clash.
As mentioned many times previously by other people in this forum, the pver will always outgear a pvper because of the rewards given by the pve system in the game currently.
I dont know whats the answer but it has to be something that gives pvpers an edge over a pver that allows them to compete but still maintaining a slight power difference with gear. Like a passive effect or buff or something. Again I have no idea what this something could be.
This way the more experienced pvper wins and gap due to ilvls is bridged thanks to this ‘something’.
And this is where you are wrong because of your “viable” perception is probably faaaaar of where it really is. Viable is 100% subjective thus whole opinion is JUST ASSUMPTION.
It’s not though, I’ve put many, many hours into every single iteration of the system, so it’s not just something I’m pulling out of nowhere. 4-ish Hours for 3-4 pieces of gear every 4 hours is very generous.
Most of my characters were not fully geared, not even close, but I was still doing just fine in casual PvP, and my mediocre geared warrior got to 1900 in 2v2 during MoP too. Same warrior is stuck at 1600ish right now with 445-450 or so gear.
In TBC it took a fair bit to get your full PvP gear via honor, but it started trending towards a smaller time investment ever since, though Wrath was omitting people from being able to obtain weapons via casual PvP so that was a hitch in the general trend towards the gearing system being more casual friendly.
Another thing to consider is the perception of what is acceptable in a BG. When you have actual gearing progress in BGs, people find other who aren’t as well geared more acceptable, because “this is how you get the gear so it’s fine”, but as it stands now, you gain no proper gear progression via BGs whatsoever so the system is more hostile towards less geared people as a result.
The old system never stagnated your progress once we got to Cata, you could be the worst player in the world, putting very minimal time into the progress, and you’d still be able to gain something out of it.
Which is not the case in the current system.
It is still just your opinion and just your threshold of being “viable”. People really need to understand that their personal opinions and experiences are not facts.
But there is objectivity in comparing the viability threshold between now and then.
In a vacuum it’s entirely subjective, but we have points in the past that we can compare it to. Whether it’s viable enough is, fair enough, ‘subjective’, but comparing to what we have, or can feasibly accomplish within the current system, viability for a casual is always going to be more attainable with the pre-Legion system (And also with the Legion system but that another matter since it doesn’t fall into the same category as TBC-WoD ones do).
The “sample size” within the context of what a system allows for you to accomplish is largely irrelevant.
In WoD in fact, I had 3 characters ‘completed’, even though I never even reached 1800 throughout the expansion, and I also played very sporadically or irregularly. The old PvP system being more lenient towards a casual player isn’t nearly as subjective as you claim to be, it’s about what the system allows you to get up to, and the numbers of the old system speak for themselves. It took a lot less to get fully geared, the mid-tier gear was a lot more viable (or in other words, relative to the top-tier gear, statistically more competitive).
There is a degree of variance in mileage between classes and specs, that I will agree with.
I’m not really here to argue about class design, but I will say that, in my opinion, pre-Legion class design did allow more room for outplay, and streamlining the classes in Legion and BfA has exacerbated the importance of gear advantages.
We are comparing timeframes between 2 modes of content where 1 is, ostensibly, largely done in solo, and another that is, ostensibly, exclusive to people who have a dedicated guild or clique to rely on.
I did not do anything that ‘a casual’ couldn’t do, I did not rely on resources that aren’t available even to people who only just started playing the game and have 0 friends in it.
I thought the whole part about how little I accomplished ratings-wise wouldve signaled that sentiment, but I guess not.
edit:
The question really isn’t about which mode is more casual friendly to me, that one is an easy answer that doesn’t rely on “subjective experiences” in the capacity that you claim it does.
Much more pertinent to the discussion would be, is it healthy for the game to be as lenient with it’s gear dispension to a specific mode of play as it was then?
edit 2:
In fact, didn’t you, in another time, claim that the PvP gear availability was so trivial in WoD that people were foregoing normal HFC progression in favor of getting some quick catchup gear via Ashran farm?
To me, that scenario sounds like you’d be in agreement with PvP gear obtainability being very lenient.
