Let's talk about the Light

Lore Story
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Because, who doesn't love the undisputed source of goodness and benevolence?

I've noticed an ambiguity in the flawed cosmology as described in the Chronicles, esp. I. I cite:

Light and Shadow are the most fundamental forces in existence. Although contradictory by their very nature, they are bound together on a cosmic scale. One cannot exist without the other. (Chronicle I, The Cosmic Forces)

Fine, fine, fair enough. We also read, ibid. p. 18:

Before even the cosmos took shape, there was Light... and there was Void.

Nothing ambiguous so far. But the infinite wisdom of Blizzard's storywriting team seems to claim something completely else on the very same page.

Yet as [the Light] expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From the absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.

This power was the Void.

Right, so let me summarise the two points given here;
1. The Light and the Void/Shadow have always existed together, since they cannot exist without the other, meaning that if there is no Void, the Light cannot exist; therefore, if the Light exists, the Void has to exist as well.
2. The Light always existed, and from the Light, the Void came to be, meaning it existed after the Light.

So, what are we missing?
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The information cited on p. 18 doesn't contradict itself.

Before the cosmos took shape, there was Light and the Void.
What this means is that these two forces both existed before reality took form, not that they always existed together in this proto-universe before that point.
The Void can come into being after the Light without contradicting that statement, as long as the Void and the Light both came into being before the cosmos took shape - which they did, according to this text.

Similarly, I would argue that 'existence' is defined as 'reality,' which is 'the cosmos,' the universe created by the conflict between the Light and the Void.
As the universe was created by the conflict between the Light and the Void, I believe it to be correct to say that the Light and the Void are the most fundamental forces of it.
As for the suggestion that one cannot exist without the other, I see nothing that contradicts that. After all, p. 18 states that the Light is not eternal, that where it is weak, it dims and dies. In this absence of Light, the Void is created.
Another thing stated by p. 18 is the dynamism of the Light, how it ebbs and flows, leading to the inevitable creation of these weak points that dim and die, which inevitably leads to the creation of the Void.
In short, the dynamic and transient energy that is the Light cannot exist without this eventual dimming occurring. If there is Light, there will inevitably an absence of Light and from this absence, the Void will come.
The Light cannot exist without inadvertently creating the Void.

As for the Void, that is much simpler. It cannot exist without being inadvertently created by the Light, just as the Light cannot exist without inadvertently creating the Void.
But as the Void is defined as being space where the Light is absent, the absence of the Void is the absence of the absence of Light, which means that where there is not the Void, there is the Light.
It's a chicken and the egg situation, with the chicken being a shining, divine bird and the egg being a shadowy vessel of entropy. Except the lore confirms that in this case, the chicken most certainly came first.

Sorry if this got a little bit pretentious but the core facts are as follows:
The Light cannot exist without creating the Void and the Void cannot exist without being created by the Light.
Both the Light and the Void existed before existence itself, with existence being born from the conflict between them, meaning that they are both equally fundamental forces of reality.
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But time existed before reality?
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01/11/2018 17:30Posted by Wimbert
But time existed before reality?

Apparently. In this proto-universe, the Light ebbed and flowed and changed. How could something change without time? Without time, wouldn't something remain static?
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01/11/2018 17:19Posted by Taxania
It cannot exist without being inadvertently created by the Light, just as the Light cannot exist without inadvertently creating the Void.

I'd agree with this, but that is not literally what is stated in Chronicle I. It may be because I do not understand your comprehensive reply (which a good think, thank you for taking the time), but if I understand point 1 correctly (the Void has to exist if the Light exists, and the other way around) then it impossible for the Light to exist, but not the Void. This had to be the case, but a little later, the author claims that from the Light a NEW (therefore, a power that did not exist before) CAME TO BE. It did not exist before, as that would be impossible, unless the Void was created from the Light at the exact same time as the Light itself, something that is clearly impossible.
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01/11/2018 17:44Posted by Theronarum
I'd agree with this, but that is not literally what is stated in Chronicle I. It may be because I do not understand your comprehensive reply (which a good think, thank you for taking the time), but if I understand point 1 correctly (the Void has to exist if the Light exists, and the other way around) then it impossible for the Light to exist, but not the Void. This had to be the case, but a little later, the author claims that from the Light a NEW (therefore, a power that did not exist before) CAME TO BE. It did not exist before, as that would be impossible, unless the Void was created from the Light at the exact same time as the Light itself, something that is clearly impossible.

Keep in mind where you are getting that particular quote from. "One cannot exist without the other." It is under the section of cosmic forces; forces of the cosmos, the cosmos being the reality that did not exist before the clash between the Light and the Void that led to its creation. These are the rules of a cosmos in which these two fundamental forces were present from the very beginning. The same rules do not necessarily apply to the proto-universe from which the cosmos was born.

Consider the fundamental forces of our own reality. The universe as we know it couldn't function without them, yet at the earliest stages of our universe, the laws of physics did not work as we understand them today. Gravity, electromagnetism, strong and weak forces were all unified as a single force during this primordial era.

Does this mean that the equations and formulae we have for the fundamental forces of our universe are incorrect because they do not cover this period? I would not say so; those definitions are not intended to cover that specific point in time. In fact, the forces had not yet developed to the point where they could be defined at all.

Similarly, at the earliest stages of this proto-universe, the Light was capable of existing without the Void because at that point, the Void did not exist. It did not just not exist, but it did not even exist as a concept; rules regarding it were yet to be defined, just as gravity was not yet defined at the start of our universe. These rules were only written when the Void itself first sprang into being from the absence of Light, just as the laws of gravity only started to apply when the force of gravity became distinct.

Talking about the beginning of a universe (even a poorly written fictional one) is always an incredibly tricky topic that I am absolutely not qualified to talk about. But hopefully I'm getting my point across, that the current rules of the cosmos don't necessarily apply to this churning sea of Light that existed before reality.
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01/11/2018 19:10Posted by Taxania
Talking about the beginning of a universe (even a poorly written fictional one) is always an incredibly tricky topic that I am absolutely not qualified to talk about. But hopefully I'm getting my point across, that the current rules of the cosmos don't necessarily apply to this churning sea of Light that existed before reality.

Yes, you have, thank you very much.

I appreciate your time spent in making your point, and I think that you have given a good explanation for the seemingly ambiguous notions of the Void and the Light. With that said, the most reasonable explanation is indeed that we are talking about different stages of the cosmos, one set of rules not applying to the other.

01/11/2018 19:10Posted by Taxania
Talking about the beginning of a universe (even a poorly written fictional one) is always an incredibly tricky topic that I am absolutely not qualified to talk about.

Neither am I, if you can even be qualified for that? It seems that Blizzard desired a full cosmological theory without taking the time to actually make one. While it can be at points interesting, it's mostly been confusing with the retcons and poorly explained details.
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If the Light is sentient - it is horrible. Seriously, go stand in a corner for using my people... And probably like a 853794863478638746 other species before Eredar.

If it is not, it's just a kind of magic to be used like any other.

I hope that my elaborate and insightful addition to the discussion is not too long and difficult to read through : )
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01/11/2018 17:44Posted by Theronarum
I'd agree with this, but that is not literally what is stated in Chronicle I. It may be because I do not understand your comprehensive reply (which a good think, thank you for taking the time), but if I understand point 1 correctly (the Void has to exist if the Light exists, and the other way around) then it impossible for the Light to exist, but not the Void. This had to be the case, but a little later, the author claims that from the Light a NEW (therefore, a power that did not exist before) CAME TO BE. It did not exist before, as that would be impossible, unless the Void was created from the Light at the exact same time as the Light itself, something that is clearly impossible.


Thats a really good point, and I totally can understand the Void, or Shadow, coming to be because of the presence of Light, as after all, that is how it is in our world,

However

If we are going by the premise of the Void being created after the Light, this could still work, after all, we are not talking about 'light' as we think of it, whether man made or from the Sun, which would instantly create shadow/Void in those places obscured from it, but a cosmic force with its own rules. Even in our world, we have defined the speed of Light, and know that it is not an instant process, and that some of the stars we see in the sky may be long dead by the time their light reaches us, we know that the Sun's light does not reach us on Earth instantly, and so therefore there is a time delay between the generation of Light, and the generation of Shadows when it reaches Earth.

As such even in our non-magical world, the Light is created before the Shadows, and that's just talking about, hmm, I don't know the word, was never good at Physics, but we're just talking about a natural process, not a magical energy, so if it is possible in our world, which has many wonders but is not 'magical' per se, then it would be hard to establish what rules apply to a universe where Light is not just a source of, well, light, heat and so on, but an actual energy that can be tapped into. I mean I suppose even in our world this is so, after all, our planet survives because of photosynthesis, or plants tapping into the energy of light.

I guess what I am trying to say is, in our universe, there is a time delay between Light Originating, and the resultant Shadows that it causes, It is entirely possible that the relationship between Light and Void is similar in Warcrafts universe, they do not need to be simultaneous.

I probably explained that badly, but hopefully you see what I mean.
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I see it more like: both existed in default state as two empires let's say. They both existed but didn't interact with each other. Like two lab rats in different mazes.

The light started expanding in its own maze. The void remained still in its separate maze. At one point the Light reaches the wall of the void's maze and starts awakening the void energy that had nothing to explore anymore.

So now there is this new opening for the void to start acting and to expand by conquering the light since they both discovered each other so to say.

Start of Universe
Dimension 1 - Light (has no idea that dimension 2 exists)
Dimension 2 - Void (has no idea that dimension 1 exists)

Light passes through dimension 3 4 5 6 7 8 and reaches the edge of dimension 2. The void realizes there are things like 3 4 5 6 7 8 and starts to explore and conquer the same way the light did.

At the cosmic level the void sees that it can enter dimension 3 where the light isn't as potent as it is in dimension 4 where the void couldn't get an advantage to expand.

Yet as [the Light] expanded, some of its energies faded and dimmed, leaving behind pockets of cold nothingness. From the absence of Light in these spaces, a new power coalesced and came to be.


Something like that. I don't see it like the light gave "birth" to the void. More like it opened the eyes for the void by passing close to it. I interpret the "came to be" part as a gateway/portal and entering different dimensions, not as a "baby being born" because the light forgot to use the condom.
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01/11/2018 23:34Posted by Halasibel
I hope that my elaborate and insightful addition to the discussion is not too long and difficult to read through : )

Ye

sorry for bad english

02/11/2018 10:32Posted by Brigante
I guess what I am trying to say is, in our universe, there is a time delay between Light Originating, and the resultant Shadows that it causes, It is entirely possible that the relationship between Light and Void is similar in Warcrafts universe, they do not need to be simultaneous.

I probably explained that badly, but hopefully you see what I mean.

I kinda do, but I don't see how it would explain the problem. Especially if there is such a delay, we might still be able to argue that the Light can exist without the Void. Can you elaborate on your ideas a bit further?

02/11/2018 13:15Posted by Dudas
Something like that. I don't see it like the light gave "birth" to the void. More like it opened the eyes for the void by passing close to it. I interpret the "came to be" part as a gateway/portal and entering different dimensions, not as a "baby being born" because the light forgot to use the condom.

It's an interesting theory, but a little far-fetched since the Chronicles don't mention the existence of such dimensions.
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02/11/2018 13:31Posted by Theronarum
It's an interesting theory, but a little far-fetched since the Chronicles don't mention the existence of such dimensions.


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twisting_Nether

The Twisting Nether (also known as the endless void, the Nether, and nether world) is the astral plane between worlds, described as the line between the ebb of Light and the flow of Void. In the beginning, there was Light and there was Void, and a time long ago, the two clashed, creating the parallel realms of the Great Dark Beyond and the Twisting Nether. The Nether is an ethereal dimension of chaotic magics that connects the myriad worlds of the universe.


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Dark_Beyond

The Great Dark Beyond, also known as the Great Dark, Great Beyond, Dark Beyond, or simply Beyond, is the physical universe that contains planets.


So it seems that when these two first met they created the astral plane and the physical one. And since we have many planets in the physical one I imagine there are more dimensions in the astral one or something similar to what we define as dimensions in real life.

I think blizzard doesn't bother too much with cosmos thingies because they'd rather have it as this unknown mystery like it is in real life.

Pretty much void and light existed and when they met it was the Big Bang. And that's about it :)
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02/11/2018 13:51Posted by Dudas
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twisting_Nether

You argued that these dimensions existed before the Light and the Void clashes, while the article you refered to clearly rejects that.
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02/11/2018 14:06Posted by Theronarum
02/11/2018 13:51Posted by Dudas
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Twisting_Nether

You argued that these dimensions existed before the Light and the Void clashes, while the article you refered to clearly rejects that.


Yes. The dimensions analogy wasn't a good one. I thought they were part of the cosmos by default and the light just explored them until they have reached the void and that clash took us where we are.

So we all exist because of the light and the void. But Anduin and his human potential will save us from primordial cosmic energies and we won't have to kneel before any of them.
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02/11/2018 14:12Posted by Dudas
So we all exist because of the light and the void. But Anduin and his human potential will save us from primordial cosmic energies and we won't have to kneel before any of them.

Nah. I'm betting that the battle between the Light and the Void will be something of a dark horse in coming content, that the cosmic battle between the morally grey forces of the Light and the Shadow will replace the more mundane conflict between the Horde and the Alliance.

Okay, so it's not much of a serious bet. But like, it's the sort of thing that I'm willing to put £5 on. I can see it happening, but it's not the most likely outcome and I'll shrug and move on if it doesn't happen. But if red versus blue gets replaced by yellow versus purple, you can bet that I'll be dead proud of myself.
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02/11/2018 14:12Posted by Dudas
Yes. The dimensions analogy wasn't a good one. I thought they were part of the cosmos by default and the light just explored them until they have reached the void and that clash took us where we are.

If you'd forget about the pre-clash dimensions, we're on the same line.

02/11/2018 14:18Posted by Taxania
Nah. I'm betting that the battle between the Light and the Void will be something of a dark horse in coming content, that the cosmic battle between the morally grey forces of the Light and the Shadow will replace the more mundane conflict between the Horde and the Alliance.

Blizzard has been working towards since 7.3, with the Void and Light retcons and the attempt to emphasis the danger of the Void (something even Sargeras was afraid of, imagine htat).

We know for certain that such battles will happen, Anduin and Velen being the frontrunners as is clear from the Son of the Wolf comic. The question is when it will happen, and what the fate of the Horde and the Alliance will be in the shadow (ha!) of the coming Void vs. Light war.
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I kinda do, but I don't see how it would explain the problem. Especially if there is such a delay, we might still be able to argue that the Light can exist without the Void. Can you elaborate on your ideas a bit further?


I'll have a go, its a bit tricky to articulate what I mean (A rare situation for me, who prides himself on being a wordy son of a b*tch)

Its like, if you go into a dark room, with some furniture in it, there is just nothing, It is dark, but it isn't shadow, It's just darkness, which isn't the same thing as shadows. You have a torch, you turn it on, suddenly there is Light, but the Light doesn't reach everywhere, it can be the best, the brightest torch ever, but it won't reach everywhere. However you move it, wherever you position it, it will never illuminate the entire room, there will always be places of Light, and places of Shadow.

Now imagine you could visibly see the Torchlight expand into the darkness, and the places that it does not light up, that said process took time, time enough to witness the formation of those Shadowed areas where furniture is blocking the Light. The Shadows did not exist until you turned the torch on, and slowly came to be as the Light Expanded, and was blocked by obstacles obscuring the light.

Even as I typed that metaphor I realise the essential problem, which actually does apply to the Warcraft universe. What, in that metaphor, is the furniture? What is it that stops the Light simply illuminating everything, and preventing there being any Shadows, or Void.

The same applies, it is said the Void did not exist until the Light did, yet the Light came first. There must be -something- that stopped the Light reaching everywhere.

What that is, in a cosmological sense, I have no idea, apart from the axiom that 'Nature abhors a vacuum', and if we take a 'Vacuum' to be an absolute state of one condition, to be filled by something, so absolute darkness or absolute light would constitute a vacuum, something must oppose it, even if passively. Just as you cannot have shadows, without a source of Light, so too can you not have just Light, as it then ceases to be something quantifiable, it just -is-, there is nothing to measure it against, because there is no contrast, the very fact that it is universally prevalent means that it just -is- the reality, and we wouldn't even have a concept of what is the opposite.

Like, if we lived in eternal sunshine, we would have no concept of night, and vice versa, one had to have come first, in our consciousness of them, and in the WoW universe it was Light.

Heck, its a difficult one to explain....
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02/11/2018 15:44Posted by Brigante

Even as I typed that metaphor I realise the essential problem, which actually does apply to the Warcraft universe. What, in that metaphor, is the furniture? What is it that stops the Light simply illuminating everything, and preventing there being any Shadows, or Void.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Dark_Beyond
Before life began and before even the universe existed, there was only the Light. The Light existed as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded, pockets of cold nothingness appeared. From these spaces, the Void coalesced. The Void quickly grew and began to move against the Light, and before long, the mounting tension between the two forces ignited a series of explosions that ruptured the very fabric of creation, giving birth to the physical universe.


So pretty much the Void's birth is a reaction to the Light trying to control everything? As it tried to assimilate everything these "pockets of cold nothing" united into something that could oppose the expansion.

Like a chemical reaction that you can't force regardless of how much of a substance you throw in? And as it continued to have light thrown at it the void that reaction came to be everything?

And now the scope is to turn everything that is light or half light / half void (physical plane) back to nothing ?

So pretty much the void is a type of energy that just existed and did nothing before the light caused its "survival instinct that turns into total conquest because the other energy tries to conquer me" to kick in?
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The Light existed as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded

What does "expansion" mean anyway, if there was no relation to space?
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02/11/2018 16:34Posted by Wimbert
The Light existed as a boundless sea of living energy, swelling across all of existence, unfettered by time and space. Yet as the ever-shifting sea expanded

What does "expansion" mean anyway, if there was no relation to space?


Basically the light was this little ball of light named Tim.
as expanded and grew bigger.
Tim becomes the Light we know today.