Just another post about m+ but tried to sum up.
In DF season 1 they moved the vault rewards from 15’s to 18 or was it even 20? can’t remember. Anyway it basically killed m+ in season 1. They did the same thing this expansion too. They moved the vault reward to 10’s.
+10 vault for myth gear is pointless. If you can already run 10’s no point getting the myth gear. It should be lowered down to 8 again as it was originally designed in season 4 of DF. You should get the gear before you run the content so it gives you a purpose to get the gear so you can beat the “hardest” level which is 10 (for a reward). Getting the max reward after you can beat the max level makes no sense. That point you no longer need it.
+9 for gilded crest is also awful. Everybody is sitting on 4/6 hero gears and can’t craft anything 636 because they don’t have access to gilded crest. It should be lowered down to +7.
Gear drop structure is not well designed. Doing anything under 5 is pointless because end of the dungeon drop is too low. People that seek the KSM (2k rating) needs to run 6-7 and if you want gear upgrade you have to run 8-10’s. Low keys lost its purposes. Nobody wants to do anything under 7 or so and those are already too difficult for most of the people but certainly for non organised groups to just jump in fresh and learn things.
The dungeons are awfully designed. The game is way too focused on interrupt and chain stuns. Missing an interrupt can result in a wipe which most likely bricks the run. This should not be a possibility ever. It is agroup activity. You HAVE to give room for failure.
Bring back the aoe festival from Legion. It was the best part of m+. Capping down aoes to 8 target was a big mistake to begin with. Put the focus on how good the dps is to beat the timer instead of just interrupt sequences and if you fail once it is a key deplete.
They need to forget about bringing back old dungeons for season 1. New expansion. People want to play new dungeons not old ones. This is your time to show new content when you have the most players. Old dungeons should be in the m+ rotation in s2-3.
Failed staggered release. M0 should have came out a week earlier. That would have given 1 week for people to learn the dungeons. Basically there was zero reason to do m0. Nobody learned new bosses. I saw people didn’t know what to do in new dungeons. and they certainly didn’t know what to do in old dungeons becaues they did not play those expansions. Normal and Heroic dungeon did not teach anything to people because everything died in 5 seconds.
Probably left out a couple key notes but here is everything wrong with m+.
20 Likes
It didn’t kill M+. It killed m+ as the WoW’s main loot pinnata where all other gearing paths(raids,PvP) where made obsolete.
Sure. It can reduce to +8 so that level is not stuck in a limbo where +7 gives hero stuff and +9 gives the highest crests.
Then people will grow borred of them rather quickly. Welcome to S4, want to run that stonevault for the 834th time which you have been running since S1?
Dungeon rotations somewhat keeps it fresh and prevents or at least delays fatigue.
Sure some changes should be made. Especially to affixes(like that 15 sec loss per death). But making m+ once again a “get your free mythic gear carneval” is not something I would fully agree with.
2 Likes
M+ is already free gear with good organised groups. I struggled timing 6’s with pugs then I went with good people and easily timed a 9. The difference between good and bad people is insanely high and m+ shows this perfectly. It is easy for good people and it is hard for bad people. Exactly tuned wrongly for both audience.
Also vault gives only 1 myth gear per week and most of the times it is not even good for your class. It is not a game breaker if it was a bit easier to get them.
3 Likes
Everything is “easier” with organized groups than with random pugs…not just M+ alone.
O boy… I will probs get called an “elitist” by the forum hivemind for this but eh…its the weekend. Let the games begin. 
Clears throat
Good people clear difficult content = get good rewards
Bad people can’t clear said content = should also get the same good rewards… Becaaaauseee?
1 Like
The change where mobs cast instantly again after a stun (or micro CC) is a terrible change.
It used to be that almost “any” cc was useful. Priest throwing in a random fear or a druid knockback? Useful because it may stop a cast.
Now what happens is:
-Shaman earthquake goes down, someone whiffs their interrupt because a micro-CC happens, now mob casts for free an instant later; or
- I pull on a prot pally, shaman cap totems right away. I divine toll to kick all the mobs and groups them, whiff all the kicks because the cap lol stuns them, now they start to recast still spread because my gather failed.
The “squish” needed to happen because it spread the playerbase over too many key levels.
This has caused problems. 2-5ish used to be a safe environment to learn without being crushed. Now unless you’re tight both mechanically and in terms of co-ordination a +2 will crush you. It’s raised the barrier to entry and made the whole format quite unforgiving (or even more unforgiving).
Delves cannibalised low keys, now people have to slog through 2-6 before it becomes rewarding. It’s not a fun climb. It’s far more palatable when you get some shinies along the way.
It’s only the 3rd week, I’m expecting to see participation drop even further this week. It already dropped off quite handily from week 1 to 2. The key failure rate is also massively higher than the last few expansions (and stats only count missed timers). The more timers missed, the more people will leave too, there is a correlation so we can safely say there are more disbands but we can’t objectively prove it.
The dungeons are just… underwhelming. (Thats being kind).
All in all this season is shaping up to a failure of epic proportions.
4 Likes
M+ is beyond joke this season.
2 Likes
Nah the average delusional player that need Dbm/WeakAuras to stay out of fire …
Your post remind me of single womens with cats giving advise how to have successful relationship 
3 Likes
And what does addons have to do with anything here?
I am no CE or 0.1% m+ runner. If I am not good enough for that, I dont get the rewards for it. Simple. I don’t go complaining around that I should also get CE rewards because…uhm… I pay the sub too! 
2 Likes
Ow is it free? Because u cry that u cant do a +10 or 9 so its not free is it? Haha
M+'s failure started years ago.
M+'s failure is the content and format itself, not the gear or loot problem.
Nothing can save it, unless its content and format are completely changed.
1 Like
I don’t agree with everything stated, but agree with some.
Gearing was too quick and easy in previous seasons. Acquiring and upgrading heroic gear was super easy through spamming M+ and after that getting myth gear from the vault also felt easy. The heroic raid felt completely pointless after the 2nd week due to how easily one could get myth track items from M+ via the vault. In DF season 2, 3, and 4, I managed to get a myth track item from the 1st week’s vault. Now we’re in week 3 (I think) and I still haven’t completed a high enough key for myth track rewards.
Creating some incentive to do M+6 keys would definitely be nice. Having hard reward upgrade steps, such as 6-7 for hero drops, 8-9 for myth crest drops makes the lower key feel useless. Maybe adding a 20% drop chance for the lower key or something like that would help.
The time-gated M+ launch this season was definitely too long and I think Blizz should open up M0s from the start in the future.
I’m OK with the smaller pull sizes this season. I think it’s better to make trash mobs interesting, rather than just zug-zug’ing 20 mobs at once. However, I dislike how DPS failures to make use of CC and defensives makes the healer’s life miserable. I think we should have more trash mob spells that reduce DPS’ers output, rather than killing them. If DPS players would see that they deal less damage on meters because they don’t interrupt, maybe they would actually learn and care about using interrupts.
I also like the dungeon rotations that involve older dungeons. I think it’s cool to revisit old content in small doses.
1 Like
I don’t care about running 10’s. I actually quitted running m+ like 1-2 weeks ago once i got 2k basically lost all interest in m+. Also cleared HC raid twice no point doing anything else. I won’t invets months into mythic raiding.
The season is over for me I’m just spending remaining game time and probably playing the anniversary for collectibles and be back for s2. I hope they improve current situation for those that still care and for the future seaons.
2 Likes
Fully agree with your post. keep the noticing up.
cultists will cope and seethe but the truth is - M+ is in an awful state rn.
1 Like
Thats exactly what needs to happen.
They need a consequence that only hurts them and where they cant redirect the blame onto the healer or the tank
1 Like
In my opinion gear should be easier to get
cause you want gear to push harder content right?
so why not just do it like it was in S3 of DF where you geared pretty fast and then tried to push yourself
i did it back then i farmed gear and pushed 20 keys in week 2
I ended up that seasson doing +23 keys it was a lot of fun i also joined boosting community and made a lot of gold
And i enjoyed that because game allowed me to easily gear up.
I have 619 weapon cause crests are locked behind 9 i can do and try find groups in pug
but i cba i have no motivation anymore cause it’s not 100% success.
I don’t like when random dude that has 200 higher score then me is clueless and brick a key
It’s only gonna frustrate me extremely when someone brick my key and leave
cause i will lose time and i will get nothing from it and also it will go -1.
I woul prefer easy gearing but harder pushing…
3 Likes
Eh Delves give a reason to either Heroraid or play M+4 Keys. Because in M+4 you get the crests to upgrade your gear to Champion 8/Hero 4 and so get a GS of 619.
There are massive issues with the reward structure.
Firstly, Delves offer far too good loot for far too easy content, generally invalidating earlier keys. It’s a joke that I can spend hours maxing vault for hero gear from M+ or run Delves and do it in 20 minutes.
Secondly, Blizzard have repeated the same problems in DF S1. For all the talk of avoiding “dead keys” they have managed to do that with +8s where the only reason to run them is for rating. Given that they squished levels partly to avoid this, this is a pretty spectacular failure.
Thirdly, because of the level cap, it creates a cut off point. Because you are stuck at 619 until you do +9s (in other words, the max ilevel reward is the same as a +4), this means 5-8 provide no ilevel improvement. Hero gear is useless until you run +9s because you can’t upgrade past 619 to 626, but you can’t get into those groups because they have higher ilevel and will want easy crest farms. This means players hit a brick wall where they need higher ilevel to get into higher key groups, but can’t get into those groups to get the ilevel to get into those groups.
What I would do:
- Shift Gilded Crests to +8. This fixes a gap in the reward structure (+8s being almost useless).
- Shift Mythic Vault to +9. This provides progression for players to gradually improve their gear to target +10 or greater.
- +10s should offer portals and not be pulling double duty as vault, portals, and crests.
- Revert the CC change. Dungeon design has not changed massively, so invalidating CC methods and allowing mobs to instant cast is poor design. This just makes certain classes overpowered because they have short CD interrupts which are now effectively essential.
The Delve loot vs difficulty problem is not an easy one to solve at this point. But this also creates some pretty substantial problems where players have the gear of someone doing the mid-high M+ keys, but with none of the skills and experience necessary. These players are walking into content they are unprepared for because they are having inflated gear levels think they are prepared. And they have zero incentive to play in lower keys and learn. This is the problem with “free gear”.
The affix causing a large penalty for deaths is creating even more of a problem especially when there are larger numbers of players who have no business being in that high a key level (see previous point). The timers are generally quite tight for a lot of dungeons and just running back even with no death timer is substantial. Now you can look at losing around 4-5 minutes for a wipe, and it makes a low boss percentage wipe brutal (several minutes lost to the fight, several minutes lost to timer penalty, runback time).
Incidentally this is a long running problem in that the better you do on a boss, the more you are punished for failure. Wiping at 1HP left, objectively far better performance than with the boss at full HP is far more of a punishment because you lose way more time.
5 Likes
The vault change feels so punishing. Having to farm 9s or higher for crests and needing +10s for vault.
1 Like
There are only two options how this could be solved. Either they need to make a system that essentially forces you to do low lvl keys like you need atleast 15 20 or whatever keys on +5 to be able to do up to the next bracket.
Or they could go the pvp route and screw it every form of content gets its own gear and you are just not going to rock a +8 in delv gear cause its so much worse then m+ gear.
Thats the only way i can see it cause to be honest it would not be a good move to punish delve players with bad gear cause good geared but clueless players make trouble in m+.
The same could be true for someone that got his hear from a raid. Sure right now it feels a bit of with how easy it is to complete a delve and how good the loot is but blizz wants it to be its own pillar of endgame and that means it needs good gear. Maybe on thing that makes it even worse is how easy people can run delvs as a group wich makes it even easier to get gear
who could have predicted this will happen