Hi, currently pugging 27-28 keys and I can look in lfg for 1-2 hours and not see the keys I want - and when I see them I rarely get invited by default since a lot of people apply when those keys finally show up. Today I was looking for 2 hours for a key that would increase my RIO without any invites with the few keys that showed up in LFG.
I think one of the problem is that one small mistake on high keys and the key is depleted and many dont bother to try to push the key again. The reason for that is that the lower key will attract less skilled people who actually need that key and the chance of success is as low as is was in the orginal key with a better team.
Example:
You try to do +27 with avarage 3500 rio team and deplete/disbann
You now list your +26 key and now only 3350 rio people apply. This will be hard with this group and big risk of deplete again
You now list your +25 key and 3200 rio player apply who need this key and you deplete again.
Every time you list your key people only apply who have never completed that key before, thats the problem and the big disadvantage. I’m sure the same goes for lower keys or what do you experience when pushing lower keys?
In my experience is completing a +25 with the kind of people who apply for that just as hard as a +27 with the kind of people to apply for that. It means its really small odds you are going to ever push that key back unless you have a premade of only people who normally do +27s.
I think keystones should have at least 2 “charges” or maybe 3. That means if you deplete the key you still have another try. Trying to push back to original keylevel is very hard when the people applying are worse and have never done it before.
I think depleteing a key is to punishing and cause less m+ activity for many.
I am not really sure whether there is a real skill difference between someone who has 3500 or 3450 RIO
There is a good chance that the lower person just didn’t find the right key etc.
There is also the chance that the lower person actually plays better than the higher person.
PUGs are a gamble, whether the people are 3700 or 3500 RIO there is no guarantee that you will finish your 27 in time and it probably won’t increase the odds by a lot inviting people who indeed finished a 27 instead of a 26.
You already need to play pretty much perfect on a 26. In both cases, 26 and 27, a wipe often means depleto, besides that it certainly is easier to wipe on a 27 obviously but considering 26 is already in the one shot territory, I don’t think it changed that much?
maybe it is a bad example but when I pug 20s, the difference in player quality of those 3.3 RIO and 2.5k RIO players is very often non existence. Often because the 2.5k player maybe didn’t have the time to complete the busy work yet to push rio or because the 3.3k player got carried and just has 24/7 play time.
I guess that is fair to say for the highest keys.
Although to pug 26 and up is doomed by default, so complaining about that might be a little odd.
I agree that a key should have 2 charges before lowering the key level. It probably won’t change too much but at least you got a second chance.
on the other hand:
why would people apply for a key that won’t give them any RIO?
It is quite natural that if people only hunting for RIO that they will only apply for keys that give them RIO hence they never timed that key level before. That is the problem with the general RIO system and that it is the only “reward” left above 20 keys.
I don’t do keys quite that high (just 20s mostly), but I like this idea nevertheless. I think one of the benefits is that it would allow players to do a “training run” of sorts without the key getting downgraded. It also offers some protection against leavers, disconnects, important phone calls, spouse or kid requiring attention, etc. Stuff like that.
Well considering that when you’re going through lower keys to beginning with, you’re already understand the dungeon/boss mechanics. It’s all about knowing the affixes, which is mostly reading the description and then applying those skills to said affixes to avoid issues.
So even though I like the idea of having a charge feature to avoid it being ruined due to leavers and other situations that you mentioned, it shouldn’t be used as “training”.
So to combat that aspect, I think if you waste a charge, then the next run should only reward you with half of the crests for example.
Just wanted to say that there is huge diference between 2.5k player and 3.3k player. You saying there isn’t throws massive shade on your entire post.
You may have a point, but seeing that just made me doubt everything you said. You sir are clearly not experienced enough.
You’re right, it is a bad example. The difference is experience. RIO was never meant to indicate player quality but people interpret it as such. It would be stupid to stay that the 2.5k player is inherently worse than the 3.3k player, but inviting that 2.5k player to a +25 or higher key would be like sitting a child behind the wheel of a race car. The child may well have the potential to one day be world champion but until they get the experience they’re more likely to just crash into the first obstacle on the track.
The reason for a player’s low score doesn’t change the fact that they are lacking the necessary experience to successfully play a high key.
Now on the other hand I just had a 3.3k mage the other day who depleted our +26 Fall on the first boss because he very confidently thought that the soaks are a tank mechanic, and thought he would die if he soaked it. I’m mentioning to just to point out that score doesn’t guarantee that the player knows what they’re doing, but the likelihood that a a 3.3k player will have more dungeon knowledge and experience than a 2.5k player is way higher.
You can have two different players with the same score and the same amount of keys done in a given season, and one could be miles better than the other. All the score/key history tells you is what they did, not how they did it.
When you pug, you invite people based on the bare minimum expectations. You can’t know if this 3.5k mage will use their utility better or do more damage than this other 3.5k mage in the queue, but you can make an assumption they they’ll both be better than the 3.2k mage. That assumption could be wrong but that’s the point I’m trying to make, being that it’s always a gamble.
When the tank or other people always do the soak you get pretty far. It requires only 1 person to do it. When the mage is not doing it there are still 4 people left.
That would be my assumption. He probably played with a bunch of vengeance DHs who would leap into each soak, so he assumed it has to be a tank mechanic without ever reading it. He was also acting extremely cocky and egotistical about it so that doesn’t help his case. He wouldn’t accept my explanation of the mechanic either so I’m 99% sure he still doesn’t understand how it works.
It is not about vengeance or any spec. I basically can always soak on my mistweaver monk, guardian druid and frost dk. It just happens to not know every detail of every ability. I have my own struggles on specific bosses too.
A charge system doesn’t really fix anything…
At some point, you just reach a difficulty where you need a team to really push further. Because as you said, a lower key attracts the people pushing into that key level.
So you need a team that can reliably push the 27 key or w/e to a 28 again.
If you’re someone who mainly plays with friends, you often have x player always does y mechanic… so you might not fully know what said mechanic entails, its just always taken care of. In turn you always do some other mechanic.
In pug its more advantages to assume everyone is a glorified monkey, so do everything yourself.
I second that idea, but maybe just make item costing Flightstones which allows to keep key level instead depleting it.
Of course crowd of doomsayers will invade this thread with “omg minority will abuse it somehow destroying my experience on my +15s”. So be ready for them
Of course, the point is that a VDH is a popular tank and happens to be easily the most mobile. The mechanic is about mobility and who makes it to the soak first, and VDH excels at it. Any spec can make it to the soak just by walking, but there’s usually specs in the group that rush in to soak with their leaps and blinks, so I as a warlock rarely have to bother unless the leap is on me and I can preplace my portal to get back in for the soak.
I guess i am not playing on the level where i only see VDH tanks, including myself playing guardian But yeah, i totally understand a ranged caster spec does not understand the detail of this soak mechanic, or does not bother since 4 other players are rushing to do it anyway
Tbh. I once had some dps blaming me for not “soaking” it while they placed their circles in Brazil and China. As non DH didnt had enough speed boosts to get there in time… while the 2 dps where just standing there next to them and didnt give a about it.
… they genuinely thought it as a tank mechanic lol.
But yeah, i totally understand a ranged caster spec does not understand the detail of this soak mechanic, or does not bother since 4 other players are rushing to do it anyway 
about it.