M+ keystone improvement

In my opinion the problem is the classtuning or what specific classes bring to the table and thats where you try to build your comp around.

A first improvement would be a BR and a BL for every Healer so you are not forced to take these in DD Spots. Another thing is the Damage of specific classes, for example Dh and Demolocks - they are partially 50k-100k ahead at the moment - so why you want to bring a DK when you can have a DH.

Atm we play Keys around 25/26 and thats the point where our dmg starts to struggle in some Keys. We could easily fix it with disc and dh but thats not the goal i guess.

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Could give it to every healer or to classes like warrior (shouts) or monks, as they are some of the less popular DPS classes partially as they can be difficult to combine with some comp you want. If you give them BL, you open up more possibilities and make people want to play with them more. Good idea.

Look. Il be brutally honest with you:

I know a ton of players that have 0 issues getting invited. 10 min wait times MAX.

LRF PuG is just like the real world: Imagine that each season, your rio score is your CV. And each time you apply to a key, its as if you send your CV to a company.

Here is a list of things to reduce the wait times (in bold the most important ones):

  • Get an addon that tells you WHAT classes are in the group. Your a Pala, and there is a Pala already in the group? 0 chance. Dont bother. Related to this are the buffs you offer. You see they have a DPriest healer and no class that can give BL and you can? Apply. Got more chances. Your a warrior and in a group with DH and Rogue? Your 5% buff is pretty good for melee. :slight_smile: APPLY. ect…

  • Change your name to something appropriate. A DH called “IlidanxxMeGaDpSBiGD” does not sound trustworthy or catchy. A pala named: “HammerOfHugs” sounds better. Sometimes you get invited just for your name.

  • Are any of your friends russian (as in, the dudes with cyrilic servers / names)? Then tell them to move to an EU server and use normal latin words. Because of comunication issues, people in russian servers have a bad reputation. Unfortunate, but true.

  • Follow the process we ALL had to follow: If you did EV in +5, look for EV +6. Not EV +15 cause “your the bomb”. Nobody knows, nobody cares. 1 at a time.

  • Create a network. PuG. Sometimes groups are just horrible. Finish the dungeon and GTFO as fast as possible. But other times, the group is just AMAZING. Be quick and offer to do your key, or to do the key-holders +1 or +2 key. And be quick and add people to your friends list. Especially Healers and Tanks.

  • Once you have a decent network, first thing you do when you log in is see if there are tanks or healers online on your friend list. Whisper them ASAP to do stuff. And preferentially do stuff with them.

  • No healers or tanks online? Find DDs in friends list. Do your keys with 2 or 3 DDs from your friends list that you KNOW. That way its less random not to fail keys.

  • Both tanks/healers and DDs are online at once? Try to form a group with them. That way, you are a 3/4 man premade atleast. BEST CASE scenario. Do your key. I can guarantee it will 100% be a timed key. If not, you will still be satisfied with the key. TRUST ME.

  • Make a private Discord server and invite people to join you. Not force people, but invite. If people hear your voice, and you introduce yourself, you sound more trustworthy. You bond better, do better networking this way. Also, even if you never see the dudes ever again you have an extra degree of coordination you otherwise would not have in a random PuG. Increases the chances of timing.

///////////////////// Last resort /////////////////////

Dont wanna network and do the above?

  • Some buddies of mine are DDs while doing premade / raid. However, when they pug, they have 0 pacience to wait times. They tank/heal and play a class that can do that. I began my healing carrer just like that. I mained warrior since 2005. Once I got sick of waiting in LFR I tried tanking. Not my thing. I tried healing with this shaman and loved it.

Now I wait like… what… 1 min TOP to get an invite?


This is what I would say to the “players” with this attitude: Grow some balls. If THEY dont take cances on others, why would others take chances on them?

Such a selfish attitude. I dont agree with any change that rewards that crapy attitude. Its the PuG world. Sometimes you depleate, sometimes you dont. Its what it is, and you cant change PEOPLE. You can just accept them as who they are. And that is what your friend should be doing, not complaining about wait times.

And if they dont like that, then network harder and make a premade. Or reroll healer. Simple as that. :slight_smile:

TLDR: LFR system is a system that works OK. Not the best, but it works.


You don’t understand the problem, this is a huge issue in M+ and players joke that it is a queue simulator rather than a log-in, form and play experience. The way the current system is designed incentivises players you don’t know to be overly selective and there is no reason why keys should be designed this way. Instead, the system should encourage people to take chances or enable players to form the groups for the keys they want but may not have in bags. Nothing you have said argues against the system proposed i.e. people could choose any dungeon or level so I assume you wouldn’t mind the system.

The current keysystem is encouraging not playing only 1 dungeon, and also stopping people from leaving every run after 1 mistake.

I am more supporting a key with a couple charges (2 ?), and probably choosing the dungeon when you get the key from your vault.

I did address what you suggested:

It IS. Let me put an example:

This guy. Goes to the forums, complains that has done 3 dungeons in 17. He sais: I CAN do a 17, so I SHOULD get invited. Fair enough. But…

Problem: At the time, he had ToT: 9. Fall: 8. DHT: 3 EB: NONE. And those 17s he did, only once.

Would YOU invite that individual to YOUR ToT 18 based only on: His name, his Rio, and his ilvl? NO? Why not?

THOSE are the people complaining that they wait too long.

So: I DO address your issue. WHAT issue? Just play at your rio. And clime it slowly like everyone else (and 8 other suggestions other than sit in Valdraken doing NOTHING). DONE.

They can do that RIGHT NOW ! The incentive is less time in the quew. Which IF thats the problem, its a very big incentive mind you.

And WHY dont they do it? Because:

I said selfish attitude. Pure and simple. And I dont condone anything that promotes, or, encourages that. No thanks.

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I think this should be your number 1
To push you need to obey this simple rule and you gonna have good time in m+

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find it rather interesting that i never play queue simulator.
i play like 6 chars regularly in m+ and some even have only 800 rio because i only do 1 +11 per week to get vault. Yet i get invited for +11 with 450 ilvl.
on my dps i usually just queue my own key and have a group within about 2 minutes. If i fancy to go higher keys on my dps, i will push my key. I already know nobody would invite my ilvl 450 shaman to a +16 even so it is easily doable and i have proven i am capable on my main. Thing is if you open a +11 key you get a ton of 470+ players with 2.5k+ rio. why wouldnt i take a quick smooth run over a slugfest?

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Well, there are casual players and they perhaps don’t encounter this problem. 450 ilvl in a +11 is overgeared, by a lot. You could be doing 20 keys easily. In my groups, people play to challenge themselves with higher and higher keys and that’s the fun of the game. The game changes when certain spells begin to 1-shot you and you need to overcome the challenge. That’s also where the queue simulator joke comes in, because people spend a long time waiting when you push higher where some may be sceptical of you (gear, score, etc). With infinite tries, they can take a chance on you more often or you can list the key, it would be far better. Having the ability to log on, pick whatever key and difficulty you want & join or form would positively change the experience for people that want to play a specific key at a specific level rather than wait around.

nobody take a 450 to a +20 in week 4, so why would you try and then complain?
it is like trying hard to waste your time

Weird you failed a brh 20 at an average ilevel of 463. Your first AD timed at 20 or above was ilevel 468. Bit rich to claim you could be doing 20’s “easy” at that ilevel.


OKOK. Im not sure what you are replying to.

You sir are completely lost. ilvl is NOT a metric to assess peoples quality.

You get 450 gear from WQ and outdoor stuff. You can get that ilvl with out stepping a foot in the dungeons.

That is why NOBODY in their right mind will ever take anyone to a 20+, even if they are full 489 gear, unless you have proven your worth. How? Well by having at-least done the dungeon in 19. And other dungeons too in that range.

That is the bare minimum to guarantee people know their mechanics.

Well NO. It has been explained many times already why its a bad idea. And many people have already explained what you can do other than sit in valdraken looking at the LFR tool.

But why write a whole parragraph. I found this guy last night that explains it very well.

www. youtube .com/watch?v=er2Jil1-G1Q

Do that instead. You wont need a computer to help you out.

the easiest in not plaging queue simulator is just play your own key in mid level and always downgrade it to mid level again till you got score and ilvl, then slowly up you key from 11 to 14 the to 16 then 17 or 18 and in the very end to 20.

another solution is of course to play healer or tank. but even now you have to start at +8 to get at least 450 and then jump to 11s to farm gear and crests. once 455 or up you can make your own key for 16s. yiu will still not be invited for 16s in that ilvl bracket at the moment even though it is more than enough. too much competition.

with ilvl 472 and 2.5k rio i am also not invited as a healer into 20s, so i just run my own.
the only time my journey of my own key is iver is when i get fall and i cannot queue the key lol

Remove key depletion would solve most if not all of the toxicity in M+ pugging the idea of “risk and reward” its meaningless, i think we can all agree having the stress and time invested in a key not timing the keys is good enough risk and reward remove toxicity from the game by removing key depletion

No i dont agree.
No depletion will have you sitting there restarting after every wipe / small mistake until you get it right, it promotes degenerative gameplay.

It’s not gonna fix the ques for higher keys either, people will still be looking for meta classes to not waste their time attempting keys with sub par specs.

The “risk/reward” of m+ is not the gear/score, its about the journey not the goal, that being said im not saying that depleting a key doesnt suck but i def dont feel like my time has been wasted.

But you saying that you only care about timing a key to me just shows that you dont really like m+ pushing and you should henceforth stop running your mouth about “the core problem of m+”.

The stress is part of the fun of m+, to push yourself to your limits. Again you just dont understand the concept.

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You can get that ilvl in new zone from Questing :smiley:
i did my first 20 in week 1 when i was already 463 ilvl
And it was not that easy

This. 100% this. Anyone that does M+ has to understand this.

I partly agree with your proposition.

I think its weird that keys “deplete” at the end of a failed run. A failed run means you sort of wasted your time and couldn’t get the score and couldn’t upgrade your key. But on top of this the game also punishes you by degrading your key to a level you already completed. It is making you waste time in vain.

Hence, keys should not deplete with a failed run.

But I don’t think people should be able to choose the key level as they wish, that will make people do high level keys with low ilvls. They may spend 3 hours on it but it might be worth the high ilvl item drop chance.

Djfarmville explained very well why its not time wasted in vain. You learned something, maybe spent time with people you care about… or just in general played the game.

Did not get a nice reward in the end. But who cares? You played the game.

Also, just as a side-note: Same idea applies to many other things in life. The fact that WoW is a game does not change that.

There. His quote. Beautifully expressed.