M+ Keystones obsolete system

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
10

Naowh tweeted about this the other day saying keystones are getting a bit outdated. He thinks it would be cool if they just removed them and you’d be able to run any dungeon on any level as long as someone in the group has timed it on the level below that. It’s more of an issue at his level, e.g. you time a +24 and you want to try it at +25 but you can’t because you got a different key.

It would stop people from having ‘dead keys’ or holding on to them for meta only comps if they have a good one etc.

Personally I don’t think the gear would matter too much as it’s only ilvl 210 anyway.

11

Why is my unwillingness to do more than 1 weekly key for vault relevant to the critique of your idea?

ofc, you have nothing to do in this thread. i am not talking about raid systems or w/e.
the change is for M+ players. who want to play more and more productive.

The system doesn’t punish - it assists in adjusting the level to the groups capacity.

in theoretical vacuum, yes. this was the idea, in practice you just get frustrated from depleted keys. and you get more hostile towards potential candidates who can do the run with you. (you prefer more higher skilled players ie with more rio)

Naowh tweeted about this the other day saying keystones are getting a bit outdated. He thinks it would be cool if they just removed them and you’d be able to run any dungeon on any level as long as someone in the group has timed it on the level below that. It’s more of an issue at his level, e.g. you time a +24 and you want to try it at +25 but you can’t because you got a different key.

this is too obvious if you played M+ enough. btw i don’t mind if you could choose up to the level you complete. it wouldn’t change much but without capping it also wouldn’t change it in reallity. it’s just hard to do high keys

12

Well for this they also have to change some affixes. It’s not just a key issue.

Besides, I don’t think that the problems of the top 0,1% of the players, who do levels which are far beyond the intended balanced-curve, should be a major factor in design-changes. When you look for the limits of a system, you are going to find annoyances.

1 Like
13

Yeah I guess.

It’s not really a problem either way I suppose, but it’s an idea and it gives people more options for dungeons. I don’t think this would be something that “only caters to top players” and negatively impacts other players.

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twitter .com/Naowhxd/status/1381753740487753735

another thread based on this one.

1 Like
15

I agree with you. Key depletion should be removed from the game. I started a thread with similar topic a couple of months ago. But it was locked for inactivity

16

All your problems sound like they come forth from you PuGging tbh and not so much the actual keystone system themselves
Basically you’re asking Blizzard to fix M+ in a way that it changes player behaviour
You can’t patch player behaviour unfortionately,

I do feel for the removal of keys tho, just let people enter a dungeon, select a difficulty and press start, the arguement against it that people can just repeat stuff until they get what they need… well yeah? isn’t that what we’re doing now as well? The only real commentary to add to this is that the game is otherwise very bad at retaining players beyond gearing, that’s a Blizzard problem, not a player problem.

1 Like
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Considering a pug prospective, i think the main problem is that the only one really punished for a failed run (ended or not) is the key owner

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That is also the one with the “most” power, the ability to choose who to do the key with. So it only matches.

Funnily he negated everything he said there by tweeting the following later on “I know I’ve been tweeting weird [redacted] lately …”.

20

Not really sure of it

The owner is the one most intrested to do a successful run, or at least to end it in the hope to get a better dungeon with those affixes, so i find it the weak part.

The ones with most power are those who doesn’t care to finish it, and specifically those who can easily find another group (tank, healers, meta specs, in this order)

21

He is dependant on four others, but that doesn’t make it a weak role. If he only wants KSM players, he will invite only those. Want only druids? Same. Only 226 Mythic raiders? Voila. A specific comp? Ofc. He has all the power.

And now imagine removing the downgrade part (or the key part overall). What will happen? The above (leader setting requirements), but then: misspull? Restart. One makes a mistake? Replace and restart. Etc etc.

We just shift the problem without fixing anything for the better, that’s not a great direction imo.

22

Doing mostly my own groups on the finder unfortunatley i can say that rarely you can see optimal comps or elite players, so you have to do with what you find, but still managed to do KSM.

I don’t mean necessarely remove the downgrade part, but maybe give to the leavers something to get worried with.

23

None of the below will solve any problems with M+ playerbase, because as someone mentioned above, you can’t patch player behavior. But I like going on wild brainstorms now and then, so here’s a drizzle:

  1. Remove the timer and instead balance the end reward based on the number of deaths.

  2. Remove the key downgrade for finished runs, even if they are at the worst mark. The worst outcome from actually finishing a run should be lack of key upgrade.

3a) When you leave an M+ group that is in an active run, whatever key you have (if any), downgrades by one level. If you’re an elite awesome player, you can just find another group and push it right back up, which is what you’d rather be doing anyway, right? :wink:

3b) Alternatively, upon starting an M+ run, remove everyone’s key from their inventory, and award them a new one at the end of the run (group disbanding also counts as “end of the run”) based on group performance and on the key they had, if any (so going into a +12 run while you own a +5 key, and timing it with one star should get you a +6 rather than a +13).

4a) Allow people to choose the key level they want to run (up to the level they have ofc), and use that as a baseline for end reward. So if I have a +12 key and decide to run a +9 with it, it counts as a +9 run, and timing it with one star should give me a +10 rather than a +13.

4b) Alternatively, allow people to downgrade their keys willingly if they choose to do it. It can sorta already be done by starting a run and then leaving it, but why not streamline the process a bit.

Bananas/10) Alternatively alternatively, and just because I’m feeling a tad vicious today, remove keys entirely and instead let people run any dungeon at any M+ level they qualify for though the dungeon finder tool - so you’ll always be grouped with people who chose the same level. Let people queue up for up to three or so different dungeons/key levels at the same time. Downgrade levels of qualification by 1 per week of inactivity. Premade groups can still be made by those who want to be more particular about who they take.

None of the above will solve any problems with M+ playerbase, because as someone mentioned above, you can’t patch player behavior.

24

So if someone dies, just restart until we have the perfect run? That won’t breed more toxicity, nope, why would it.

2 Likes
25

That’s how it already is, though.

26

So why make it even worse then?

1 Like
27

I was feeling a tad vicious at the time of the post.

28

Note sure, might better - I don’t know why people are defending the current system.

The problem is the vast amount of players destroying keys on end, not doing their part.
Joining the same key to up their score, over and over. Destroying at least 10 keys every hour because they are not getting carried on mechanics.

I call them YOLO-Players.

I usually push my own key, and try to direct it by making routes with notes and drawing for each player in the group. But quite often I get one or two of these YOLO-Players. If its just one, it can be carried, but if its 2 - they key usually ends before the 10 minutes mark, due to missed interrupts, cc and/or ninja-pulls. Tbh it feels like they are just there to look big on meters… (no brain what so ever).
Its these YOLO-Players that needs to be punished - playing 10 minute keys over and over, all day. Hoping to get carried on mechanics.

I don’t know if it would be possible to somehow put a deserter buff on these players if they leave within 10-15-20 minutes? Make it appealing to plan and coordinate before you start, as you wont be able to just destroy another key within 5-10 minutes.

I don’t feel it was this bad in BFA, It didn’t feel that hard to pug 23’s last Xpac.

29

because they have little of macro understanding.

None of the below will solve any problems with M+ playerbase, because as someone mentioned above, you can’t patch player behavior.

what posts do you read? idc about toxic/leaver players. i care about game mechanics. if you can’t distinguish it please don’t post here. it’s like you are talking to yourself.

the point is very simple. i need a specific key, right now i just queue and w8 for the desired key to be available, or theoretically i can have myself this key (1/8 chance). AND if for some (many many) reason we fail this run key owner get punished and the key is downgraded etc. so this system is just about time wasting, and not you completing the dungeon in time. game rules gate you. maybe you like to be abused by stupid game mechanics it’s up to you ofc.

30

Seeing as M+ is group content, you don’t have to “queue” solo. Make friends, build a friend network, and you’ll have much higher success rate - and the chances of one of them having a key you need is also bigger the more friends you have.