M+ Level Squish - Was it Necessary?

[Avgoustinos-darkmoon-faire]

So we all know how Blizzard went about the S4 launch by reducing all M+ levels by an effective 10 points meaning that a +20 for example would now be a +10. Was this necessary?

I do high keys and push for title. I have a lot of alts though and want to be doing weeklies on them. When getting into groups for keys level 8-10, the people who are in the team are sometimes at best capable of doing a 8-10 pre-S4 (meaning something like a +0 nowadays? idk).

It seems to me that all this M+ level squish has done, is make a lot of people join a +10 with the illusion that they’re doing a +10 when in fact the difficulty is +20 and they end up punching above their weight and no one has fun in the end. Maybe they are aware of the changes but sub consciously they still don’t want to be doing keys of level 1 or 2 etc and end up queueing to something that’s not their actual capability.

Idk, but one thing we can all agree on is that the general performance of people in weekly vault keys has dramatically gone down, and this is the only reason I can think of (I know it’s fated season, but in all seasons in the past including SL fated, there were little to no issues in getting weekly-level keys done. This time around most of them will disband on first pull/boss).

So why did Blizz feel like this change was so necessary?

Thanks

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Avgoustinos-darkmoon-faire

So why did Blizz feel like this change was so necessary?

To condense the playerbase into less keys.

From this pov it made sense.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Avgoustinos-darkmoon-faire

Idk, but one thing we can all agree on is that the general performance of people in weekly vault keys has dramatically gone down, and this is the only reason I can think of

I think this season is worse than the previous fated season. Last time, people were willing to give it a chance because they thought it was a one-off, and there were a lot more good players still playing. I’m a mythic raider, and I play with the kind of people who just want to blast through weekly vault keys as fast as possible. This season, everyone I know has either stopped playing to wait for TWW or is only doing remix. It wasn’t like that in SL s4.

[Uda-uldum]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

people were willing to give it a chance because they thought it was a one-off

IMO this is not the only reason.

SL S4 had :

• Affixes in raids which made them more interesting.
• At one point all 3 raids were available, so you had 30 bosses per week to kill.
• Class and dungeon tuning (in M+ atleast).
• New tier sets
• Experimented with a ton of new and radical concepts.
• Literally there was nothing else to do.

DF season 4 :

• Raids are as dumbed down version of what they were. With out cycling. With out affixes.

• ZERO class and dungeon tuning in M+. Especially after S3 of also ZERO tuning as well.

• Recycled tier sets.

• Remix MoP and other things.

• Experimented nothing.

So literally I don’t understand what was the point of S4 DF. I dont mind a season where there are no new dungeon and raids. Thats OK.

But literally a renamed S3 with out any tuning at all… lazy at best…

So obviously people dont play it. Myself included.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

Affixes in raids which made them more interesting.

They made raids awful. The only reason I set foot in them was to get the SL s4 equivalent to bullion (dinar).

@Uda-uldum

At one point all 3 raids were available, so you had 30 bosses per week to kill.

And that will be the same this season - with pre-patch. People have short memories.

@Uda-uldum

Class and dungeon tuning (in M+ atleast).

The M+ meta stayed the same from s3 into s4.

@Uda-uldum

New tier sets

It was their first experiment with reintroducing tier sets ahead of DF, and it was a bad experience for me personally.

@Uda-uldum

Experimented with a ton of new and radical concepts.

Dinar, which they brought back this season because they were a good idea.
Affixes, which they didn’t, and I’m glad of it.
(Two concepts, and neither of them radical.)

@Uda-uldum

Literally there was nothing else to do.

FF14 is still there, and I’m actually enjoying it more than I did when I first played it in SL s4. I’ll probably continue playing it when TWW launches and spend less time (and money) on WoW.

@Uda-uldum

So literally I don’t understand what was the point of S4 DF.

The point is an attempt to keep players occupied without spending any money on dev hours, much the same as SL s4.

I remember saying at the time that I was willing to give the new idea for s4 a chance, but I was worried they would consider people playing it to mean it had the seal of approval, and they’d make it a regular thing. My worries were well founded, it seemed.

But FF is fun, as I said. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, although you do get used to it, but the storytelling leaves WoW in the dirt. I struggled to fall asleep last night because I was mulling over where the story was going (tore myself away at 2am) and that certainly isn’t an experience I’ve ever had with WoW.

So I suppose I have the WoW devs to thank for driving me to find something else to do. I only wish I’d had the foresight to pause my WoW subscription at the beginning of s4.

[Uda-uldum]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

FF14 is still there, and I’m actually enjoying it more than I did when I first played it in SL s4. I’ll probably continue playing it when TWW launches and spend less time (and money) on WoW.

Enjoy. I hate FF14 with all my soul. I simply don’t like the esthetic and story of Korean MMOs (or Asian stuff in general).

Point being.

S4 of SL had things you did not like. It had things you did like.

But essentially it was some grand experiment where we got to see something new. And fresh.

But S4 of DF is just a continuation of S3 with nothing fresh at all. If anything, its a downgrade from S3 because there is even less tuning.

I was not expecting this level of abandonment. So I kind of agree with you there.

And if you do leave for FF14. We will miss you.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

S4 of SL had things you did not like. It had things you did like.

It had one thing I liked. Let’s not exaggerate.

(Since I posted, I recalled that I had alpha/beta access to DF as well, so I spent most of my WoW time during SL s4 on that.)

@Uda-uldum

But essentially it was some grand experiment where we got to see something new. And fresh.

I’m glad you noticed this, and it’s your point too, because it’s the entirety of my point.

It was a grand experiment. People engaged with it, so they decided it was a fantastic success, players loved it, and it was worth doing the same kind of thing again. (They even thought players loved the “old dungeons in M+” idea so much that they brought it into the main seasons.)

We only have ourselves to blame by not voting with our feet/wallets the first time it came around.

I also should have commented on this from your earlier response:

@Uda-uldum

Literally there was nothing else to do…Remix MoP and other things

It doesn’t say much for a season that people only played it because there was nothing else to do, and that people choose to play even older recycled content in remix and Cata classic than the recycled content of s4.

@Uda-uldum

I hate FF14 with all my soul. I simply don’t like the esthetic and story of Korean MMOs (or Asian stuff in general).

Hate it with all your soul? That comes across as incredibly childish, and not worthy of you. There are plenty of things I don’t like visually and in story terms, but I reserve “hating with all my soul” for the politicians who are out to cause harm to vulnerable people.

As for the FF14 story… it’s solidly structured fiction. (I’m a fiction writer, so I know this.) If the feeling of playing a game and reading a novel (my two favourite pastimes) at the same time is common to all Korean games, then I obviously need to play more of them.

[Uda-uldum]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

Hate it with all your soul? That comes across as incredibly childish, and not worthy of you. There are plenty of things I don’t like visually and in story terms, but I reserve “hating with all my soul” for the politicians who are out to cause harm to vulnerable people.

As for the FF14 story… it’s solidly structured fiction. (I’m a fiction writer, so I know this.) If the feeling of playing a game and reading a novel (my two favourite pastimes) at the same time is common to all Korean games, then I obviously need to play more of them.

I hate them with the peice of soul I have allocated to games.

I get it has story and stuff. But I just cant deal with cat-ear girls. The general esthetics. Girls in heels comes to mind. Lolis comes to mind too.

But in general, I don’t like medieval European esthetics mixed up with Asian faces and cat ears. I cant swallow it. Sorry.

Story wise, I cant swallow it either. All those “eras” and “cosmic beings”. Its like chinese history with made up names.

Also… weaponizing the moon? Weird.

I dont like the setting.

You can try to convince me, but its 100% pure and simple esthetics. Nothing more.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

(They even thought players loved the “old dungeons in M+” idea so much that they brought it into the main seasons.)

If anything, this is 100% the only thing from SL S4 that was worth keeping.

What do you prefer? Bolstering and lame affixes for 2 years straight to keep things “fresh” in the M+ scene.

OR… New dungeons every season.

Im sorry, you raid a lot. The equivalent of that is saying there will only be 3 raids from S1 onward. And you are stuck for 2 years playing them over and over again.

With slight deviations because some weeks the bosses will 1-shot the tank just because. So you wont raid that week. Other weeks will be a walk in the park and your guild will ask you to play 24/7 that week. That situation is what affixes create.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

It was a grand experiment. People engaged with it, so they decided it was a fantastic success, players loved it, and it was worth doing the same kind of thing again.

The experiment yes. But with different parameters.

Bullions were a success they did not copy. Catalyst was a success they did copy.

And honestly, they could have gone even more experimental in this season. Sort of like a “live beta” sort of speak.

But they did not. And its a shame.

Its a shame because if they did nothing, you would be playing FF14 anywais.

If they did a lame season like this one, you play FF14.

But if they try to do something new and innovating, maybe you like it and dont play FF14.

So out of the 3 options, they chose the 1 that literally forces you to play FF14.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

What do you prefer? Bolstering and lame affixes for 2 years straight to keep things “fresh” in the M+ scene.

OR… New dungeons every season.

Neither. I preferred seasonal affixes. They were fun.

@Uda-uldum

Im sorry, you raid a lot.

I do now, yes. Until DF screwed up M+ for me, I did mostly M+ and barely raided at all.

@Uda-uldum

Bullions were a success they did not copy.

They copied it for s4. Anyone who thought we’d get it in a “real” season was delusional.

@Uda-uldum

Catalyst was a success they did copy.

The only reason catalyst was “new” in SL s4 was because it was the season when they reintroduced tier sets. It doesn’t count as a separate “SL s4 success”.

@Uda-uldum

You can try to convince me, but its 100% pure and simple esthetics. Nothing more.

I’m not interested in convincing you. I simply wrote a few lines saying how much I’m enjoying it, and you felt the need to launch into an aggressive attack as if YOU are the one trying to convince me to hate it.

@Uda-uldum

But if they try to do something new and innovating, maybe you like it and dont play FF14.

I don’t actually like “new and innovating” very much. I find the first weeks of every new expansion stressful and exhausting. I prefer small, carefully thought out changes. Completely opposite of the WoW devs’ approach of throwing everything at the wall and seeing if any of it sticks.

[Uda-uldum]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

I simply wrote a few lines saying how much I’m enjoying it, and you felt the need to launch into an aggressive attack as if YOU are the one trying to convince me to hate it.

Sorry then. I just wanted to post my personal opinion on FF14. Nothing against people actually playing it.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

They copied it for s4. Anyone who thought we’d get it in a “real” season was delusional.

Im one of those delusional people. Especially if blizz keeps putting OP items in raids only.

Its frustrating to say the least.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

Neither. I preferred seasonal affixes. They were fun.

Still boring for me. After a decade of that it was time to change.

@Tyssera-ravencrest

I do now, yes. Until DF screwed up M+ for me, I did mostly M+ and barely raided at all.

I really enjoyed M+ in DF. Except for the sudden dissapearance of class and dungeon tuning after S1.

M+ only works on the long run if there are constant weekly tunings.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

Except for the sudden dissapearance of class and dungeon tuning after S1.

M+ only works on the long run if there are constant weekly tunings.

The trouble with repeating and same thing over and over and over again is that even the people who were listening to begin with (like me) just switch off and stop listening after a while. Every time I see you post this now, my brain just goes “blah blah blah”.

Just a heads up because, if I’m thinking it when I started out strongly agreeing with you, you can be certain you haven’t convinced anyone who didn’t start out agreeing with you. More likely, you’ve simply increased their feelings of animosity/disdain. (And I include any Blizz employees who may be reading in this statement.)

[Uda-uldum]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

The trouble with repeating and same thing over and over and over again is that even the people who were listening to begin with (like me) just switch off and stop listening after a while. Every time I see you post this now, my brain just goes “blah blah blah”.

Just a heads up because, if I’m thinking it when I started out strongly agreeing with you, you can be certain you haven’t convinced anyone who didn’t start out agreeing with you. More likely, you’ve simply increased their feelings of animosity/disdain. (And I include any Blizz employees who may be reading in this statement.)

I am flattered you think you might be the only one reading.

And it works both ways my friend. You also repeat your same complaints over and over again.

The difference between you and me is that once I agree with you, I actually cite you and spread your message. In particular the Mythic Raiding part, which is the topic you are most passionate about (or were at-least in S3).

Something you don’t do.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

Just a heads up because, if I’m thinking it when I started out strongly agreeing with you, you can be certain you haven’t convinced anyone who didn’t start out agreeing with you. More likely, you’ve simply increased their feelings of animosity/disdain. (And I include any Blizz employees who may be reading in this statement.)

@Uda-uldum

I am flattered you think you might be the only one reading.

I’m done. Seriously. You don’t even bother to read half of what I post, so your claim that you “spread the word” is laughable.

Enjoy the rest of s4.

[Uda-uldum]

I am not enjoying the rest of S4. Was I not clear enough or you need me to repeat again why?

[Dejarous-draenor (Dejarous)]

@Uda-uldum

I am not enjoying the rest of S4. Was I not clear enough or you need me to repeat again why?

Honestly nobody really cares.

The question posed here was about the squish. You just went off on your usual talking points without even touching on the question asked. It’s fine that conversations evolve but you didn’t even pretend to engage with the topic, you just got on your soap box and regurgitated your talking points (Full disclosure: I’m a voracious reader and I skip 99% of what you say because of this).

[Uda-uldum]

@Dejarous-draenor

Honestly nobody really cares.

The question posed here was about the squish. You just went off on your usual talking points without even touching on the question asked. It’s fine that conversations evolve but you didn’t even pretend to engage with the topic, you just got on your soap box and regurgitated your talking points (Full disclosure: I’m a voracious reader and I skip 99% of what you say because of this).

So?

The answer to the squish was done by you in post #2. Why? Because blizz said so.

Case closed.

The rest is 4chan bla bla. Nobody has to read it. And full disclosure I dont care if you read it or not.

What is the problem with regurgitated talking points? What is this? The meetings at may job or something?

You think you are the only one that skips 99% of the nonsense that is written here? Even if its on topic?

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

My problem with the squish is that i am not good enough to make the jump from heroic to M0 on off roles. I have to be very far overgeared to succeed. I really do not like this change. I am currently relying on my dps to get boosted by friends and communities, and my tank is super dead since i can not get carried as tank.

[Elsiriana-daggerspine]

@Tyssera-ravencrest

But FF is fun, as I said. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, although you do get used to it, but the storytelling leaves WoW in the dirt. I struggled to fall asleep last night because I was mulling over where the story was going (tore myself away at 2am) and that certainly isn’t an experience I’ve ever had with WoW

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the story telling in wow ASWELL in FF is utterly bad. Actually the story in FF is a slap in the face of the story telling in Ff7, 8, and 10.

[Tyssera-ravencrest]

@Elsiriana-daggerspine

Sorry to burst your bubble

Someone’s triggered because I criticised WoW’s terrible story telling…

[Elsiriana-daggerspine]

as i said Wow Story is utterly bad but the story in FF MMO is also uttlery bad in comparison to their Single player games. sorry Neh