I think if you check again, this was about level scaling. For Normal dungeons. At level 71 and 74 I can be ridiculously “overgeared” with basic TWW blues. Nobody was talking about Heroics.
It doesn’t block people any more than group leaders demanding 1600 score for a +2.
The difference is, normally, you would need decent gear to attain 1600 naturally, while you can do Proving Grounds as a fresh max lvl.
Depends on the gear. I think you might agree that a +2 on 580 ilvl is more difficult as a +7 on 640.
It would allow you to spot a someone with undeniable skill.
For your information, I don’t even have any addons installed. Not even damage meters. I don’t notice if a player does bad damage, only if the group does bad damage. I notice if people are dying to nonsense.
Again. Leveling? That was relevant maybe 1 week after TWW launch. Also “basic blues” of S2 are like… 50 ilvls higher than the ones at launch. Its what seasonal content is all about. After 1 season everything before it becomes irrelevant. Deal with it.
Leveling in WoW is simply dumb. If they dont change the formula of “questing through past expansions” its just a meme really. I dont know why you guys make such a big deal over something superfluous.
Its like complaining that I can 1-shot BFA raid bosses and get “free loot”. And that they should fix that scaling.
(A) you know this is BS.
(B) group leaders will simply demand proving grounds AND 1600 rating. You think anything will change?
Right. So you want people to pass through some challenges FIRST, before they can access the content that would give them higher ilvl gear.
If you got 640 gear it means you already did some M+ dungeons to begin with. Therefore you either already passed the challange, or you did not and are still stuck with 580 greens.
But lets assume that you could walk into such challenge with 640 gear. So people would simply go do some delves. Get fully stacked in gear in order to rolf those challenges and be back in M+ as if nothing happened.
Or not. Make the challenges so insanely hard that its almost impossible at low gear. Forcing people to farm gear in order to do the challenge at a “normal human difficulty”… all for what? To do a 2+ that would be literally a walk in the park compared to that?
They tied this in the past. Did not work. Doing the same things and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
Look. If you hate carries so much simply move up in difficulty. You cant get carried all the way to a +13/+14. Its simply not possible.
Anyone that makes mistakes in those levels are simply honest to god mistakes. Not “I am L2P i got carried and don’t know fire burns” type of mistakes.
//////////////////////////////
I will simply give a message to all the idiots expecting RTWF, Method players in a 2+ : Low level keys are MADE for people to do mistakes. They are MADE for people to practice their imperfect rotation on a but-naked new alt.
That is their purpose. Their purpose is NOT to farm gear. Their purpose is NOT to farm crests. They are there so that people at those levels can progress through them.
And if any of you bozos out there claim to be a “good DD player” or whatever, STOP hanging out with the newbies. Go do higher level keys and stop wasting your time, and their time. But if you DO hang out in lower keys, just suck it up. Know who you are playing with and stop complaining.
And those that ask 1600 for a 2+ are simply morons. PERIOD. A 2+ cannot deplete. There is like ZERO reason to not simply pick anyone at random.
Nobody is talking about S2 gear vs S1 gear. This is about leveling.
You are the one making a big deal out of it. It was a suggestion. Some people like leveling. Maybe not you or me, but there could be some.
It’s not like that at all. Previous expansion’s raiding content is not relevant for leveling. Leveling dungeons are.
A) It was an example
B) As it’s their right. If they want to spend an hour curating people before an M+ run, all the better for them.
What will change is, that 1600 rio guys who cat even get Silver, will be invited much less.
You can quote me on that, please. I never said that this has to be mandatory.
Not even close. The group passed the challenge.
I don’t know what you mean by this. Could you kindly rephrase it?
My last +11 DFC run was like this: Lock and Pally pulling the right DPS, doing mechanics. better geared, higher m+ score devastation Evoker was dying left and right, doing 65% of their damage.
This is the norm in PUGs. That guy couldn’t do a Silver Proving Grounds. And that would should be visible before invite.
I agree with that. Let me adjust my recommendation.
Would you agree with having Proving Grounds, but, the details of your achievement wouldn’t be visible below +10?
“Nobody is talking about this thing that is relevant. Everyone is talking about hypothetical flying elephants that don’t exist”.
Leveling is a NON issue. Case closed, tread finished. That is what I said.
Look at the title of the post: “M+ needs a rework”. What does M+ have to do with Leveling? NOTHING.
Like I said. You are unhappy with Leveling? Then change something else. Dungeons are 100% not part of the equation.
Its like saying: I dont like cars in the street. So lets change something about the international space station. Im sure that will solve the issue.
I made it a big deal because you guys dont get the memo yet…
Leveling in general, as a concept, is not relevant. It has nothing to do with dungeons. Dungeons are just a symptom. Not a problem.
If you say: You need to get gold to begin doing M+. HOW would a person get 1600 rating with silver?
And if people spend 1h forming a group. Imaging how much longer you would be waiting to join said group…
See how nothing will change? Or would even be worse.
Well if its not mandatory, why do it? You got RIO for that already. Also I will quote you on that:
This is what he said. This is your reply:
You agreed with that statement. And added extra difficulty on top. How else should I interpret this? Changed your mind suddenly and now it’s “voluntary”?
Plus. Dont BS me with this. Please. You know that if you put arbitrary numbers PuGs WILL abuse them and they will eventually become mandatory. You yourself admitted to inviting only people that passed “gold”. What other alternative do you give the people that did not? Simply sit there and wait in quew?
How do you think we got Rio # in the first place? It just fell from thin air? Some bad dream of a blizz Dev? NO. Its US, the community that make addons and metrics to impose arbitrary hoops to join groups.
How would a challenge mode suddenly make players play better. Why cant they simply do the same thing they do now: OK. Concentrate, get this gold challenge done and then you can chill doing M+.
All this is assuming you need to do the challenge before you do M+. Because if you don’t, it will show up in the quews and nobody will invite you.
You said the difficulty of the challenge mode would depend on gear. So. People “have to do it” before doing M+. So you have 2 extreme scenarios which give a picture of all the “greys in-between”:
CASE A: Make the challenge super hard. So people will FIRST farm gear (Delves, LFR, crafting, ect…) and then do the challenge. And THEN do M+.
CASE B: Make the challenge super easy. So its just a 20 minute “side quest” you do before jumping into M+.
What happens in CASE A: You complete gold. But you have 0 rio and a 2+ key in your bag. You start your M+ journey being crazy over-geared and over-qualified for a 2+. Not until you reach 8+ you would be “at your level”.
The question then is: WHY do we have level 2+ to 8+ then ? It would be a waste.
What happens in CASE B: What is the purpose of the challenge mode then?
What happens in “grey zones”: A mix of both. And a mix of both is stupid regardless of how much of A or how much of B you take.
THEREFORE: Challenges == stupid idea.
You got ONE anecdotal example. What? YOU cant join a key and be distracted for 20s? YOU never do mistakes?
That Dev Evoker simply made a human mistake. It happens. You do them to Mr. Perfect.
Its not like he dosent know that fire burns. It simply means that he miscalculated by 1 pixel, hovered over a swirlie he though he could pass but he did not. And because he died, he did 65% the DD of the other 2 that did not.
And passing some “proving grounds” will not stop people from doing honest to god mistakes. The ONLY thing to prevent this is practice and repetition by DOING dungeons.
I don’t agree. PERIOD. Because there is no “magical line” in which people stop doing mistakes. Its not like after a +10 people will suddenly play perfect as if they are Method players. Not even YOU.
Look. If you argued with your boss and had a bad day. You will make a couple of mistakes here and there. The higher the key, the less you make. WHY? Because you made mistakes before and learned from them. DONE.
You think the “pros” were born “pros”? NO. They simply had much more time to fail, die, and learn to get to where they are.
And this is a process. No proving grounds can replace it, or change it. You just cant. ESPECIALLY when pugging.
If you dont like what you see in pugs, the solution to that is build a premade. Atleast then the individual in question can say “sorry” in discord.
???
What is it going to deplete INTO? A +1? A +0? An M-2 ?
Let’s do that. You are right that it’s not appropriate for the topic on this thread. The rest… Yeah, let’s just close that subject.
I never said that you need Gold to begin running M+
Probably the same. There are enough Silver/Gold players around.
I agreed with the Proving Grounds idea, not that it is mandatory. But of course, I did not specify that it doesn’t have to be mandatory, so you win this one. Oh, well.
You know there’s a new addon coming out that shows player parses. That sounds less toxic I guess.
You cannot stop people inventing more ways to filter out the charlatans who get carried to higher end content, only to ruin other people’s games.
To anything above +8 or +9? Yes. For a +4? Nah, Silver would be enough for me.
They could get better at the game and their class. Silver shouldn’t be an issue to anyone who understands their class.
And water is wet.
They cannot get carried through it.
Well, simply because it’s not the same thing. They are no able to perform well. They lack skill and knowledge. If they lack motivation too, I agree, this won’t help with that.
I suggest this so many times that I simply forget to mention that gear is set for this challenge. Much like Mage Tower. My apologies if I mislead you with my lack of clarification.
He was “distracted” for 33 minutes. There’s a difference.
He died 6 times and was combat res’d 3 times. You don’t lose 35% performance for dying once. Maybe on raid bosses if you don’t get resurrected.
Never claimed I play perfectly. But I give shugar and understand the game design. I very rarely fish up. And again, that Devoker didn’t annoy me, because I don’t even see his performances.
He did annoy everyone else in the group.
It wasn’t meant to replace it. Not sure how did that came up.
The aim of Proving Grounds is to prove your skills. Sadly M+ score or gear under certain levels are proof of nothing.
I feel like you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. It deletes to another +2. Timed = key get higher, Deplete = key get lower down to a minimum of +2.
It doesn’t get higher so it has depleted.
I did not say I agreed to the WLogs parse Addon. And its not about it being “toxic” or not. WLogs do have a very usefull purpose in this game.
But after 20 years of watching the community use tools for the wrong purpose… I adapt to the playerbase we have. Not the one I would like to have.
And the community are babies. They should only allowed to play with Duplos and Plush Dolls. Nothing remotely more complex than that.
That is why Rio and ilvl is literally the only thing I am prepared to tolerate. Everything else (including proving grounds) is a toy too sharp for babies to play with.
For YOU. But how much do you want to bet that they will demand “platinum” proving grounds for that?
You yourself have plenty of post on this forum complaining about people asking for 2500 RIO to do a +4…
Bad idea. Dont over think it. Its like droping gasoline to a fire.
You walk arround here with this arrogant attitude that I despise. It dosent matter how well you know your class, or how many hoops you jumped through.
Mistakes are mistakes. Everyone does them. Including yourself. It has nothing to do with L2P. It has to do with getting distracted for 2s in a 40 min dungeon run and dying.
If you are prepared to gate people because of mistakes, then be prepared for others to gate YOU.
If the water is so wet. Then you would clearly see with your own ayes that the proving grounds suggestion is sewer water.
But it cannot prevent 2s loss of concentration in a 40 min run. Or being “a little off that day cause I argued with my boss”… situation…
Please ! You think people dont know that fire burns? Of course they do!
They either dont want to dodge it. Or wanted to dodge it, but failed because of X reason. “knowlede” and “ability” have ZERO effect on this.
What? You never had a bad day?
You are being really dumb right now. You are getting 1 player, and judging his performance across the whole season, across 50 or so keys he already did… based on ONE encounter with him.
That Dev… he did not get to that 11 just “like that”. He actually played well before. In the other 50 keys, cause he completed them succesfully.
He just happened to fail in YOUR key.
And 10000% that proving grounds will not change this fact.
You do expect others to play perfectly though. You and 3 other people in the party were crusing an 11. So you belong on a higher tier of difficulty.
That Dev howerver, maybe he belongs in that difficutly. 10/11. Or a bit lower. 9/10. Who knows !
Look. If you dont like the PuG scene dont pug. Get a premade and stop complaining.
I gave you scenario A and scenario B. If you want people to prove too much, then WHAT is the purpose of keys +2 to +10 then? Or ANY level. Because that is what M+ IS:
An infinite “proving grounds” from +2 to +20 (the max).
Do M0 deplete? What happens if you dont complete an M0? What do you call that?
M2 dosent deplete. It behaves EXACLY like an M0 but with a timer. Literally that.
If you fail in any shape or form, you can just reset and try again. Like raids (that dont deplete). Like delves (that dont deplete). Like heroics and M0 (that dont deplete)…
To be fair. I am running 2-3’s on my shaman, priest, a couple now on the paladin and for now +2’s just got smashed. I started today on a +2 floodgate which got timed. We continued with the same group into Darkflame +4, and then we runned again with the same group the Theater +6. The group wanted to go with the +8, but i had to do real life stuff.
I don’t know. When you are running a lot of +2’s, you probably will find the exceptional bad run. But then we are talking about that 1 in a thousand runs. I do not think we need to change the game for that.
I am not sure that you aren’t mixing me with someone else. When I am gathering the group I nearly chose on a first come, first served basis. (my pre-made friends hate it)
Because it don’t think that ilvl or m+ score is a good indication to performance.
If we had Proving Grounds, I would definitely take that into account.
I think I understand your view.
I don’t mind you calling me arrogant, despite showing nothing but respect to you, your views and the topic.
But you mistaking my point here. This has never been around “mistakes”. You act like that I have hate in my heart for people dying once a month to obvious and avoidable mechanics.
No. That’s not what this is about. This is about me playing a healer, and seeing that zero, I mean exactly zero people are doing the affix, so that I have press a cooldown to overheal 40% of hp pools every minute.
Or that I see that a guy is dying in every second pull yet we are killing things the same speed. Might as well have him kicked out, but he would still get rewarded.
Or that nobody kicks a single spell apart from me and we wipe on the same pull 3 times in a row.
I can live with all of the above on a +2 or even a +4. I cannot accept them on a +8 and I would hand out two weeks long bans if this happens above +10. Which does.
Good luck with that. I don’t even step into a +4 in 642 gear, before I have done 5-6 +2s. Just to make sure I know what I am doing. And I know that you can easily time a +7 in 635.
Yes, yes I did. I have a certain level of expectation, and while you will not agree with me, it’s actually very low.
And he couldn’t even hit that bar.
Now that is nothing but an assumption. A myth. A guess at best. You have no evidence for it and you know.
That, he did. And from his performance, I can confidently assess that he also failed in many other keys, if not in most of them.
I ignored your scenario because it was assuming that the Proving Grounds requires gear. That’s on me, again.
The purpose of +2 to +10 is gear progression, practice, and above all, enjoyment of mythic dungeons at a challenging pace.
Since you have other players helping or hindering you, it can never be a Proving Ground.
M2 compared to M0:
Drops less Equipment
Drops more Crests and Valor
Drops much less gold (including prof materials and vendor trash)
Gives score based on time completed
Requires you to kill certain % of trash before you get rewarded.
Requires you to kill all bosses before you get rewarded
Doesn’t allow you to re-spec inside
Caps combat resurrections
Disallows you from changing party members without reseting progression
Must have at least one party member with eligible key
That’s from the top of my head. It’s a whole lot different, even if you “plan” to fail the timer.
Of course, I wouldn’t take anything seriously for +2s. Never have. Even if my group fails it 5 times in a row, I will keep playing them with fresh characters. But things change above +6
What I despise is you personally putting some arbitrary line like this:
And extrapolating player performance to simply being bad.
The bottom line is this: M+ IS proving grounds. A never ending proving grounds. With (as of today) 16 levels of difficulty from 2+ to 18+. Not just 3 (gold, siver, bronze).
You cannot say ANY challange you undertake will be perfect the 1st time you execute it. You need practice.
You apparently got your practice for a +8. Years and years of it. AND was mentally focus to undertake it. Orther did not.
What literally takes all respect from your PoV is the extrapolation of YOUR situatoin to others. Simple as that.
Then all this stuff:
Is on YOU. Do what your guildies say. USE the tools infront of you. Dont make people jump ONE MORE hoop for… reasons…
Funny thing is… neither do you.
So stop assuming and requesting “proving grounds”.
It IS. You said it yourself. M+ is all about teamwork. So you should practice that: Teamwork.
Who cares?
I said they dont deplete. That is not on your list.
Its the only thing in common between an M2 and M0.
I think it may come as a shock to you, but there are players who are just simply bad. Not fated to stay forever bad, but at this moment, compared to what the content they apply to requires, they are bad.
Where the first 8 levels of it can be attained by afk’ing through a dungeon. A very “useful” proof of skill and experience.
So… I need to wait for a 2k m+ scored player for an +5 run? That is what my guildies say. That is the tool I have.
And yet, even with that. I run into charlatans.
I have some evidence to support my claims, even if they are statistically irrelevant.
Okay, so now we are going to have team scores displayed? What is your score with these 4 other players in your group? But not showing anything regarding you yourself, as this is about team work.
Agree… so? They exist. And just like some philosopher said, you have to be smart to know you are stupid.
They dont know it. You do. But if you PuG, ESPECIALLY if you PuG, then you simply have to deal with their existence. Its like rain, or winter. They suck, they are there. We deal with it and move on.
Simply do what I do. Time all 12s. Get the “no deplete” achievement. Profit. Invite random people, and 1st time they mess up kick them out and find a new person. Re-start the dungeon. DONE.
Its a 100% guaranteed way of finding out who is worth what in 5 minutes.
You have to AFK less in an 8+ than in a 2+. And even less in a +10. That’s the point.
And then, why are you complaining about a +8? Dident you say you went to a +11 with some Dev Evoker? Keep climbing key level until you start sucking as much as the Dev because you reached your maximum. That is where you are supposed to be.
Not an 8!
The point is that the chances of running into a charlatan are much less. And fewer.
I have my whole RIO profile that proves to you that examples like that Dev, are few and far between. And SOMETIMES, I even play like that dev. Cause I was not “in the zone” at that moment.
Fair enough. It makes sense that with the alts you are still in an 8+.
But you will have to go through the same process you went through with your main. Simply get your RIO up with the alts and move on to higher keys. That is how you solve the “carry” problem.
Oh my sweet +12 child
On a serious note, I haven’t depleted a +2 key, but I have experienced wipes there due to overconfidence and actual players who treat the game like Classic (stand still and just spam 2 abilities).
But I had depleted a +4 Stonevault last season.
One of my suggestions for the game is to replace the “fail” factor with “delayed success”. The concept of denying reward despite time spent just because one did not meet the hard-defined performance lines should not exist for challenges that require some substantial time from one’s evening. It’s ok for a 1- or 2- minute world quest but not for a 30+ minute dungeon run.
In the specific case of M+, I’d make it so that after a key goes overtime, then it enables a Determination-type buff for every wipe similar to LFR. The players will eventually clear it, get their reduced reward and the key won’t be upgraded, but their time will not have been absolutely and entirely wasted down the drain which is soul-crushing.
Playing a dungeon, pressing your keys IS the reward for your time spent. WoW is a game. Your “reward” is PLAYING the game. The gear at the end is just an “enabler” to keep you playing the game. Its not supposed to compensate you for “your time”.
