M+ over 20 = "No Hunters"?

Classes Hunter
264

Please comfort me : you did see a massive jump in your total health points at the release of DF, even with the same gear, right ?

I personnally went from roughly 200K to more than 350K with my S4 SL gear, just by logging on after patch day.

Oh, and yes, I’d have to spend a couple of hours searching through all the weekly patch notes since the initial release of DF to find the correct “blue post” as well as the various “tuning down” they did afterwards, but the info is out there, now buried under almost a hundred of more recent “blue posts”.

265

If I understand correctly, do you want to know if there has been an increase in HP of the Hunter?
If yes, of course it’ was around 40-50k.
But there had also been this :
Rejuvenating Wind now heals for 8%/16% of maximum health (was 10%/20%).

266

You are welcome to hold that position, but it is quite an absurd one. It might not be absolutely perfect, but there is going to be a very strong connection between the two. What are classes/specs you would consider defensively strong in m+? Ret? Warlocks? Holy pala? It’s not surprising all of these specs are reflected extremely strongly in this data too.

There are a few minor factors that play into this. Being in melee is a significant advantage in terms of healing received (Light of dawn/temporal orb/sanctify, etc), we all know that ranged DPS in your guild who stands in africa at every chance.

The biggest factor though, is that simply ranged tend to have more mechanics thrown at them than melee in this raid. As a 9/9M RL I can tell you that almost all deaths on Echo mythic, or Sark mythic, are almost all ranged. I could list lots of differences here, but honestly cross comparing melee to ranged is just not super reliable. On the other hand, you can to a decent degree compare ranged to ranged, and melee to melee.

See this is what I feel like people fail to do. You cannot look at one defence, and be like ‘This is a 2 min CD, and is therefore worse than x classes 1.5 min CD’. You have to look at the entire defensive package. Defensive cooldowns are just one aspect of this, self healing is just one small aspect of this, etc. Just because something has self healing doesn’t mean they are suddenly better defensively than other specs.

It was generally lower. But in the absolute highest of keys, the relative balance of damage taken is still going to matter. You are still going to get absolutely murdered by large amounts of damage, it’s just in DF you often hit that point at a lower key in comparison, so it doesn’t make a huge difference.

My point when comparing to SV s3/s4, is that people can complain about defensives or whatever, but in reality what matters the absolutely most when it comes to being meta for keys is just simply damage. Have enough damage, and you are probably going to be highly sought after.

I agree. But this just highlights my exact point above. If hunters did more damage than right now, none of this defensive stuff would even matter as much. The overwhelmingly biggest factor is just purely damage.

This wasn’t a nerf. This was because everybodies HP went up, but they didn’t want everybodies percentage HP gains to go up. Everything percentage based in the game also went down to keep things the same.

267

Ok, so I ask you:
Since survivability is also given by the position in which you play (melee Vs ranged taking your example) how can you establish that the Hunter’s defensive cds are actually valid through the data of the percentage of death in Raid?
I am therefore still convinced that those data cannot be representative of the fact that the aforementioned defensive Cds are valid, better or worse than those of another class because Survival itself is subject to various variables.

Not only the damage but also the defensive cds.
And with a class like the Hunter, which has “questionable” defensive cds, the chances of being invited to the high keys are reduced.
Put in the fact that the BM/MM certainly don’t shine in damage and the game is done…

268

I will state again. What matters is the overall defensive package. And as I say in this very post, comparing amongst your own role is completely fine - and hunter is one of the strongest ranged on this metric.

The fact survival s3/s4 was so strong just proves this wrong. Like, it helps, but clearly the biggest factor is simply damage. As you say, enhancement shaman is pretty poor defensively but is extremely strong right now and present in lots of higher keys - because damage >>>>>>>>>>> everything else. The everything else is just a bonus.

269

While trying to share what you asserted, I can not find commonplace.
I remain of my opinion that since that percentage is affected by various variables, I have no objective information whether actually, even the entire defensive package, is adequate, sufficient, strong or not.
Anyway, I reserve the possibility to be proved wrong by someone else.

Once it is established that the damage received is much higher in Df seasons than in Sl seasons, then defensive cds play a prominent role, in addition to the damage done.

But enh Shaman, has higher damage than Hunter, stun totem, more kick.
So more points in favor and that’s why, almost always, it is preferred to the Hunter.

270

You can’t use data from raid to anticipate survival rates in mythic plus because the damage profiles are so different. Bosses are entirely predictable damage, and boss fights involve planned use of healing and defensive CDs.

M+ is mostly trash fights, and while the damage profiles of these can be anticipated and planned around, this anticipation and planning requires predictable routes and trash pulls. This is why it becomes apparent which classes/specs are weaker defensively in pug situations where the group can’t anticipate exactly what the tank is going to pull and save or use their CDs accordingly.

271

Yes, and No : indeed that 2 Points Talent gives even more HP, but on the lauch of DF, all classes and specs got an HP increase, before changing anything (Talents, Gear, iLVL, etc).

I was used to having a tiny bit less than 200K HPs with a full S4 Shadowlands 4-pieces Tier Set (that I got from doing +20 keystones and using the thingy to change items), and before doing anything, just by logging in, my HP climbed to 300K on lauch day.

272

If you seriously want to believe there is no correlation whatsoever, then sure lol. Hopefully neutral people can see how absolutely absurd this take is though.

So why is enhance considered meta right now, considering it’s defensives are pretty atrocious and arguably far worse than hunters? Your answer is ‘enhance deals more damage’…EXACTLY. Just proving that damage is a WAY bigger factor than anything else when it comes to m+.

M+ Is pretty predictable damage too, for actual high key groups. If you want to talk about pugging then sure…but you guys are so desperate to put down the data/statistics provided for nitpicky reasons, but offer absolutely no alternative. You are still arguing purely from feelings.

273

Not really, to be honest, and it’s also one of my biggest problems at the moment …

Short version : if there are no mobs to do damage to the PUGhell, you won’t need either Self Defensive or Self Healing, period.

When you don’t take damage, you don’t need to heal or turtle-up.

The problem here is doing enough damage at the right time and on the right targets, while still keeping mobility and reacting to mechanics … when you’re not sabotaged by the rest of the team.

Just one example, then I’m done : yesterday, Vortex Pinacle +14, Paladin as a Tank, Monk as a Healer, me with my BM and 2 SPs as DPS.

All went rather well up to the first Boss (that cloud king), even if I felt that the Tank pulled a bit too many mobs a bit too fast, because those stacks fo Detonating were climbing mighty high, I finished several fights against trash packs at 4% HP after spamming Exhilaration, Heal Potions and staying close to the Monk.

Of course, the two Shadow Priests, despite still having access to heals and absorbs, never used them.

Then came the Dragon miniboss … that cretinous Tank pulled the two Assassins with the miniboss, and stuck everything inside the green healing pool of that mechanic, while nobody but me tried to stop those Assassins to stealth and attack the DPSers.

A real nightmare, the mobs were getting healed faster than we could damage them, until he FINALLY moved the fight out of the healing pool.

Then, the Dragon boss itself … it’s where the intellect of the common mussel owned by the Tank showed : he systematically turned the Dragon towards the rest of the group before each breath, started berating us in chat instead of actually pressing his keys, got the healer killed then told him “Bro just alt-F4 and delete WoW”, and the final touch was that he just alt-F4ed himself.

All that to say : if you get unlucky enough to get into an horrible PUGhell with not enough damage done, or done on the wrong targets, you will take more damage than you will be able to survive, even with massive boosts to our current toolkits.

Damage matters first, because dead mobs don’t do damage to you, then mechanics matter, because pulling two hard-hitting mobs with nasty teleports and stealth attacks inside of a healing pool is frankly stupid beyond comprehension, then it’s group composition because some classes and specs mesh better with each other, and finally we come to Personnal Healing and Defensives.

I still think that the Self Healing of my Beast Master is far from enough, mostly because I cannot get out a Spirit Beast most of the time (do you have BL ? if not, get out), and that the cooldowns of our Personnal Defensives is way too long (double or triple of almost every other Defensive, with no Purge and no complete Immunity), but I’ve been in +14 runs where I did not need to use a single Defensive or Self Heal, everyone did their job perfectly without a word said.

274

But I’m not telling you that it’s not true because if there is a low general dps you don’t close the key in time, especially in the high ones.
But an enh Shaman is considered almost Meta not only for making a high dps but because it provides more utility to the group than a Hunter.
More kicks, Aoe Stun, Dispell.
I forgot…
He doesn’t have a fat as s like the Hunter :smiley:

There is no Leech,Exile and Fortutude heal too little.

Some time ago was like this but now in 22+ when I read “Bl” they don’t take me and prefer to wait for a Shaman or Evoker

275

I don’t know about 22+, but it’s already the case in the 14~15 I’m trying to do at the moment.

When I’m accepted though, and in a Dungeon where I know what I should do (or not), I’m usually outdamaging characters with a higher iLVL than mine, to the point of having to restrain myself if I want to avoid dragging too much attention on my squishy self.

All that in PUGhell too, so I never know if the other players between keyboard and chair will be mad, cautious, reckless, if they know or not the mechanics of that particular instance, etc.

See my story about a Palading tanking a miniboss and two assassins inside a healing pool to get an idea of what I deal with !

276

Look at the title of the thread. Pugging is what this entire massive thread is about.

277

It’s logical reasoning, Jerby.
Those data cannot be taken into consideration to explain the question of defensive CDs.
Too gap between Sv and MM (18% VS 22% death rate) who have the same defensive cds.
It’s not a question of being desperate but simply you believe too much in that data.
So, your alternative is also feeling.
Anyway,I’am waiting for some intervention to change thinking.

I have read it.
Things that happen in Pughell :wink:

1 Like
278

There has been a severe lack of this in this thread.

Have given you some examples why.

Hopefully anybody with an open mind can weight up the value of the stats and see the issue is nowhere even remotely as bad as you feel like it is.

279

I know you are but what am I…

On this I agree with you.
We need people with an open mind !

1 Like
280

You realise that enhancement defensive skill is alot worse then hunters, they have more utility thats it.

281

Yes, it’s a much better and more complete class.
The Hunter, as a utility, is in bad shape and is a class that is now abandoned and does not receive improvements.

282

I don’t think it’s so much a case of hunter’s utility ‘being worse’ than shaman’s. It’s more that the utility needs in keys have changed because of the rework to affixes (as well as the change to binding shot).

Hunter slows had base value in some SL dungeons (HoA and SoA come immediately to mind), and on necrotic week any class with slows was highly valued to help the tank kite. Additionally, hunters were used to trap inspiring mobs so the rest of the pack could be moved away (other ccs available, yes, but freezing trap isn’t mob type specific).

There is an argument that class utility should be updated to reflect the changes in utility needs in keys, but shaman’s utility being more useful with the current dungeons and affixes isn’t a case of shaman being a ‘more complete class’ but merely one of it being better suited to current circumstances. And circumstances can change.

283

Ok, but above all it is a speech of general utility where, in my opinion, the shaman has many arrows available compared to the Hunter.
This translates as a better choice in being invited to the groups istead of the Hunter.
Better Dps,Aoe Stun,more kicks, etc.