M+ over 20 = "No Hunters"?

[Døøse-nemesis]

I open this thred quoting a sentence written by a player in another forum:

Big thread on Reddit about how hunters currently require too much “babysitting” (that’s a quote) from healers. Healers chiming in to say “I won’t pug with Hunters in M+ because they need too much attention”.

This can only mean two things:

• All Hunters are very scarce and actually need the healer to babysit
• Effectively it is a class that has many problems.

I believe more in the second sentence

Personally I have big difficulties in finding a group in the M+ 22 keys and although I spend hours and hours, with 100 and more subscriptions, I am ALWAYS rejected in pug.
I only see requests for SP, Sp or Pala,Shaman enh as Bl and for you who are Hunter you lose all hope!
If you don’t have a premade group to back you up and where the healer pays special attention to you as a Hunter, since you have defensive cds that belong to the Jurassic period and are obsolete, you can’t go higher.
I can also understand this:

• A class that is mediocre as a general dps
• A class that does not provide any buffs to the party
• A class that has Bl but is discarded by a shammy enh or an Evoker.
• A class,as above mentioned,have defensive cd outdated

But at this point I Ask : is it possible that the developers don’t read even 1% of the complaints we write or pretend not to look?
It is also enough to read all the threads open in the American forum to realize this.

The Hunter has been in these conditions for about 8 months (since the beginning of the expansion) and I really would like to know if the developers will make substantial changes or a possible rework.otherwise I will carry on with another class (reluctantly because I prefer to play this class) or I have to stop playing considering that only META classes are chosen.

[Cliero-ravencrest]

Hunters are scarce in m+ yet by leaderboards on raiderio is the 3rd most used class in the game??

Im afraid this reddit post is primarily misinformation.

Hunter isnt perfect ofcourse, but to view it as a massively unwated class i dont think is accurate either.

Community perception of the class does seem to be a all time low, and it is survival leading in terms of usuage currently.

MM needs a way to BL without summoning a pet.

I think hunter suffers the same issue as other classes with massive xifferences in speccs. You cant concrete invite them based on anytging.

You cant garuntee their not melee.
You cant garuntee their able to provide BL.

Pets can be annoying during skips if hunters dont despawn them

I dont think hunters squishiness is the reason though, they have access to a immunity and a DR which is low compared to some options. But theres ALOT of very squishy speccs accepted.

Evoker being one of the top pnes which is the squishiest option as of right now.

[Døøse-nemesis]

@Cliero-ravencrest

Hunters are scarce in m+ yet by leaderboards on raiderio is the 3rd most used class in the game??

I was referring to the higher keys and not the lower ones where the number of Hunters increases significantly.
If we want to be objective, the strongest hunter in the world is in position 193 in the Rio rankings while at the first places I look at:

• Priest Shadow
• Pala Retry
• Mages
• Rogue
• Druids
  I don’t see any Hunters and there must be a reason don’t you think?

@Cliero-ravencrest

Im afraid this reddit post is primarily misinformation.

I think exactly the opposite and I believe that the Reddit post reflects the feeling that healers have towards the Hunter, a class that needs special attention to prevent it from dying and that not all of them are willing to support it
I have also spoken to many of them and they are all of the same opinion

@Cliero-ravencrest

Hunter isnt perfect ofcourse, but to view it as a massively unwated class i dont think is accurate either.

And what would be accurate for you to say?
Do you also have a Hunter and do you have less problems than me in being invited to the 22+ keys?
Coincidentally, in all groups I always see Priest Shadow, Retry Pala, Druid and Shaman Enh.
Even when they write “BL” and I request an invitation by writing “BL Pet” in the notes, many leaders prefer to wait for another Bl class rather than invite me…

@Cliero-ravencrest

I think hunter suffers the same issue as other classes with massive xifferences in speccs. You cant concrete invite them based on anytging.

That the Hunter doesn’t have to be invited ALWAYS and in all circumstances I agree but we are talking about waiting even the whole day and, despite numerous requests for invitations, no invitation arrives.
I disagree when you say that the Hunter has the same problems as other classes because in high keys I see most of the classes rotate, except for the Hunter that I rarely see it in pug in a premade of guild.
So it is pointless to generalize

@Cliero-ravencrest

You cant garuntee their able to provide BL.

Why not if I write on note “Pet Bl”?Xd

@Cliero-ravencrest

Pets can be annoying during skips if hunters dont despawn them

Does a Hunter who intends to do 22+ seem to forget to dismiss pets like in the third boss of Neltharus’s forge when it is necessary to jump?

@Cliero-ravencrest

I dont think hunters squishiness is the reason though, they have access to a immunity and a DR which is low compared to some options. But theres ALOT of very squishy speccs accepted.

The only truth is that the Hunter is a class that needs to be reworked and that has numerous problems, from the ridiculous AI of the Pets up to the defensive cds that are inadequate with long recovery times and that make it difficult to most healers.
Another truth is the total abandonment by the developers towards this class and that despite the numerous complaints, present both on this site and in the European one, they do not make any change or tangible improvement

[Lorcryst-dalaran]

First of all, I’m not at the +22 keystone level yet, by choice, because I’m a relatively new player and most if not all of the dungeons are completely unknown to me, so I started at the lowest possible level to learn.

Second, while I have several other characters at level 70, my Beast Master is the only one that I like to play, that I do M+ runs with, and that I know well enough to actually comment on the spec.

With that said : Oh Sweet Basement Cat do the Defensives of the spec suck with low effects and horribly long CoolDowns.

I think, personnal opinion yadda-yadda, that THAT is the point most in need of a rework, if we had actually usefull defensive, we would not need to be babysat or given special attention by Healers.

There is way to mitigate the fact that we’re a bit less sturdy than a wet paper bag : simply not being there when damage happens, but it’s actually quite hard, or impossible due to Mechanics, in most M+ dungeons (and even some out in the world situations).

BUT … I genuinely think the biggest problem does not lie with the Hunter class and its specs, but rather in the totally overpowered Flavour Of The Month other specs that outperform everything else.

I’m currently upping my timed keys one level at a time, with 2 and 3 chested almost everywhere in +13 to +14, and while it takes some times, I do get invites, and I do my best.

I still lack some knowledge about the dungeons and the mechanics, and I plainly say it when I get into those dungeons, but I’ve managed to outperform SPs and Boomies that had 10 iLVLs on me, because I’m at the point where I know my spec, rotation, timers and CDs by heart with the “muscle memory” of my fingers so ingrained that I don’t have to think anymore about that and I can concentrate on priority targets and reactions to immediate threats.

If/when I reach higher keystone levels, it will probably change, YES the Defensive of all Hunter specs need, direly need, a complete rework (seriously, Turtle up for 8 seconds and you can do nothing else unless you break your own aura, with a 3 minutes CD on top, and Survival of the Fittest only lasts 6 seconds with the same 3 minutes CD), even more so when compared to every other Defensive ability out there.

Ok, we’re supposed to compensate for that by moving around … and THAT is not always possible !

Again, and for the last time, Hunters need work, mostly on the survivability and Defensives parts, but they are not the problem : massively overpowering some other specs to the point that if there are no Shadow Priests in a PUGhell the keyholder will let application die until he gets one is a much bigger problem.

[Lorcryst-dalaran]

@Døøse-nemesis

Does a Hunter who intends to do 22+ seem to forget to dismiss pets like in the third boss of Neltharus’s forge when it is necessary to jump?

Cannot let this pass.

No, I don’t forget to dismiss my pets.

YES, everyone that did not play a Hunter completely ignores that that takes time, and they refuse to give me enough time to actually dismiss my pets, resulting in me jumping down with them (mistake), having to wait until my pets are there to open fire (starting my ramp up late, mistake), and then I’m blamed because I did not dismiss my pets … then why did you not allow me three seconds to do so, even AFTER I told you that it’s not instant and asked, nicely I might add, to wait 3 seconds, ya doofi ?

And NO, it’s not necessary to jump into that Forge, it’s even couterproductive because you’ll have adds on the edges that could be aggro’ed by AoE, proximity, stray shots/spells and more.

Clearing the edges of that room actually gains the PUGhell more time than jumping in : the whole group gets more % for completion, allowing to skip annoying trash packs elsewhere, and the combat against the Boss is much smoother without having to worry about everything left on the edge and above platforms.

[Nightfur-daggerspine]

Litteral bs a hunter doesnt need to be babysitted, even not on 24 - 25, then a holy priest also needs to be babysitted.

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

@Døøse-nemesis

• Priest Shadow
• Pala Retry
• Mages
• Rogue
• Druids
  I don’t see any Hunters and there must be a reason don’t you think?

So shouldn’t the title be ‘M+ = "No Hunters, monks, warlocks, warriors, DKs, DHs, evokers’, because the real issue is community perception and how much of a hard-on the community has over meta specs.

This issue is not so much a hunter issue (Although exaggerated right now slightly because BM/MM are pretty weak in m+), it’s a ‘Even doing a +16 key I will literally sit in queue all day and only take meta specs’ as if it’s even remotely needed. A +22 is not a ‘high’ key (Depends who you ask obviously, but it’s not super far from a +20 weekly key), yet people will act as though it’s impossible to play without 5 of the best specs in the game, which is just clearly false.

@Døøse-nemesis

The only truth is that the Hunter is a class that needs to be reworked and that has numerous problems

This is clearly false on the defensive side. Survival S3/4 of SL was a completely meta spec due to damage and it’s lack of defensives was irrelevant. Hunter specs right now are far more tanky than back then - with more HP, an extra defensive cooldown, shorter CDs on sotf, etc.

Hunter right now has a couple of issues in m+:

• Both BM/MM are just simply not great damage wise.
• Our best spec by far, SV, which is actually VERY strong in m+, is just not played by most people. And this snowballs - because not many play it, people don’t realize how strong it is, which means not many play it, etc etc. And because of all this, it barely gets invites.

All of this ‘defensives are bad thats why its not picked!!!’ are barely half truths that are completely irrelevant outside of +25s, based purely on bad community perception.

Another reason is just simply that some specs have pretty passive defensives, baseline DRs and such, whereas hunter defensives are almost all active buttons. This means hunter defensively scales far harder with skill level than some other specs. Something i’ve noticed even when looking at really good players is that people are generally pretty terrible at using defensives properly.

[Lorcryst-dalaran]

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

Both BM/MM are just simply not great damage wise.

Sorry, I have to react to this as a Beast Master.

I can get up to tremendous amounts of damage, in the 200K range, IF AND ONLY IF I get enough time to ramp up my 3 stacks of Frenzy, then depending on the situation activate Multi-shot for the Cleaves, and lastly two Kill Commands.

With the incompressible GCD of 1.5 seconds, that’s between 6 and 9 seconds before I can reach “peak damage potential”.

If I miss a refresh of Barbed Shot, I’m back to zero.

If I must pick up the slack and do an Interrupt or Crowd Control, I risk missing a Barbed Shot and going back to zero.

Add to that that with some of the Tank specs, I must wait 3 to 6 seconds before starting my own ramp-up to allow them to build their Threat (or else I grab the aggro, I’m flattend like a pancake, and of course contribute nothing) [Daemon Hunters, Death Knights and Druid are those specs, they need to build up their Threat with a ramp-up too, while Protection Warriors and Paladins generate a massive amount of Threat with their openers], all that can add up to 15 seconds before I can reach “peak damage”, and by that time there simply isn’t enough HPs left in trash packs for me to get high numbers.

Strangely, the higher the keystone = the higher the amount of HPs on the trash packs and Bosses, and the better my performance gets. Again, IF AND ONLY IF I’m not forced to break my concentration and rotation to pick up the slack of PUGhell people that completely ignore vital Interrupts.

Just one example, in the Underrot there are those bat-things that will cast a Fear-effect, making you run into AoEs, puddles of damage or even worse, more mobs.
I’m usually the only one trying to Interrupt those spells, with Tanks that pull several packs at once with at least three of those bat-things chain-casting that Fear effect.

That leads to several full wipes, every one grumbles or rants, and most people just leave.

Oh, and those butterflies jumping around and ALWAYS turning the big AoE blasts towards the rest of the group is a several-times-per-day occurence too, resulting in wipes on the first trash pack in any M+ dungeon (looking at you, Daemon Hunters that don’t understand that you don’t need to actually go to the Soul Shard you generated if you bothered to actually read your Talents).

The offensive potential of the Hunters is clearly there, the Defensive too albeit with ridiculously long cooldowns (but we should move out of the dangerous places to mitigate that, the class is supposed to be based on mobility), but we need time to unleash those potentials, time that is often denied to use by “ImmaPullBig” or overpowered FOTM specs that kill everything before we finished ramping-up.

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

@Lorcryst-dalaran

I can get up to tremendous amounts of damage, in the 200K range, IF AND ONLY IF I get enough time to ramp up my 3 stacks of Frenzy, then depending on the situation activate Multi-shot for the Cleaves, and lastly two Kill Commands.

I mean, this isn’t really tremendous amounts of damage when people are doing 200k+ across an entire dungeon including all bosses/single target etc. It isn’t super rare to see people doing 500k+ on AoE packs, but all of this is besides the point: BM/MM damage isn’t great i’m sorry.

@Lorcryst-dalaran

With the incompressible GCD of 1.5 seconds, that’s between 6 and 9 seconds before I can reach “peak damage potential”.

If I miss a refresh of Barbed Shot, I’m back to zero.

Frenzy stacks are giving you nowhere near as much damage as you believe it does. It’s the tiniest ‘ramp up’ of all time. And i’m not really sure how it’s possible to miss a barbed refresh, we are absolutely drowning in procs right now. And even if it does drop…it’s not a huge deal.

@Lorcryst-dalaran

If I must pick up the slack and do an Interrupt or Crowd Control, I risk missing a Barbed Shot and going back to zero.

Firstly, an interrupt has absolutely no effect on damage whatsoever, it’s off GCD. Even having to use CC, this can be completely played around.

@Lorcryst-dalaran

Add to that that with some of the Tank specs, I must wait 3 to 6 seconds before starting my own ramp-up to allow them to build their Threat (or else I grab the aggro, I’m flattend like a pancake, and of course contribute nothing) [Daemon Hunters, Death Knights and Druid are those specs, they need to build up their Threat with a ramp-up too, while Protection Warriors and Paladins generate a massive amount of Threat with their openers], all that can add up to 15 seconds before I can reach “peak damage”, and by that time there simply isn’t enough HPs left in trash packs for me to get high numbers.

There is not a single tank in the game that cannot keep threat of single barbed shots lol, you are doing basically 0 threat, multi is 0 threat, anything BM does gives you almost no threat whatsoever. Waiting 3-6 seconds as BM is like…absurd. You can pretty much hit instantly and if not either you or the tank is doing something wrong.

This whole 15 seconds thing before peak damage is just insanity - not only can you usually keep stacks rolling between packs, but it really isn’t a huge deal to drop them anyway, since they are so quickly reapplied and are not an absolutely huge damage increase anyway.

@Lorcryst-dalaran

Just one example, in the Underrot there are those bat-things that will cast a Fear-effect, making you run into AoEs, puddles of damage or even worse, more mobs.

I’ll be honest, I have no clue what mob you are even talking about. The only fear I can think of is the big mobs at the end who can’t be interrupted anyway.

@Lorcryst-dalaran

but we need time to unleash those potentials, time that is often denied to use by “ImmaPullBig” or overpowered FOTM specs that kill everything before we finished ramping-up.

If this was true, then damage in high keys would be better than everybody elses. But guess what, it isn’t.

[Døøse-nemesis]

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

So shouldn’t the title be ‘M+ = "No Hunters, monks, warlocks, warriors, DKs, DHs, evokers’, because the real issue is community perception and how much of a hard-on the community has over meta specs.

Considering that I am Hunter I have spoken about this class in M+ and the difficulties found in being grouped in 22+.
I would like to premise that I didn’t consider 22+ as high keys but to the fact that in the HIGHEST keys, like 22+ or even 23+ the Hunter is absolutely not chosen in Pug.
So high keys not in an absolute sense.
For the record I see more Lock, Evoker and Dh in the 22- 23+ keys groups than the Hunters.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

This issue is not so much a hunter issue
yet people will act as though it’s impossible to play without 5 of the best specs in the game, which is just clearly false.

So, as things stand, whoever doesn’t play a meta class has to stop or reroll another class because the perception of the Wow community is negative towards these classes and especially towards the Hunter?
Whose fault is it?
Certainly not the player who wants to improve, go up in Rio but doesn’t have the class that allows him because groups don’t invite you.
People who are convinced when they write that classes are balanced as never before make me laugh.
But balanced a horn, as are the Meta classes?

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

This is clearly false on the defensive side.

But clearly for you and not for all Hunter players and I think I have also written this to you several times, right?
We want to talk about the turtle that in different situations is practically useless, you’re not immune and it doesn’t allow you to take off your mortal Dots ?
Or the shield that has a ridiculous 2.4min cooldown?
The 170k healing self-care is practically useless given that in the slightly higher keys and in the tyrannical week Bosses do exaggerated damage.
Or, do you have to switch Pet after casting BL and engaging the boss to get another defensive cd?
It’s just absurd.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

Frenzy stacks are giving you nowhere near as much damage as you believe it does.

I think differently,
Losing 9% critical and 90% attack power is no small feat.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

It’s the tiniest ‘ramp up’ of all time. And i’m not really sure how it’s possible to miss a barbed refresh, we are absolutely drowning in procs right now. And even if it does drop…it’s not a huge deal.

You want me to believe you’ve never lost a stack of Frenzy?
Not even in the face of the overlapping of multiple mechanics that put you in serious difficulty and you couldn’t refresh it to survive?
When you come across slow healers, perhaps because they think that overhealing a tank is the right thing, or because they are in trouble and don’t heal you, you are also forced to use two defensive cds as well.
And 7 seconds of time to refresh the stacks is not an infinite amount of time
But speak as an MM please and don’t hide behind the fact
that you use all three specs because it is clear that the main one is MM and you made the highest keys from MM. XD

[Nightfur-daggerspine]

@Lorcryst-dalaran

Add to that that with some of the Tank specs, I must wait 3 to 6 seconds before starting my own ramp-up to allow them to build their Threat (or else I grab the aggro, I’m flattend like a pancake, and of course contribute nothing) [Daemon Hunters, Death Knights and Druid are those specs, they need to build up their Threat with a ramp-up too, while Protection Warriors and Paladins generate a massive amount of Threat with their openers], all that can add up to 15 seconds before I can reach “peak damage”, and by that time there simply isn’t enough HPs left in trash packs for me to get high numbers.

Then you have only had “bad tanks” BM dont have the burst dmg to get instant aggro, they just dont have that. So you had bad tanks tbh.

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

@Døøse-nemesis

So, as things stand, whoever doesn’t play a meta class has to stop or reroll another class because the perception of the Wow community is negative towards these classes and especially towards the Hunter?
Whose fault is it?
Certainly not the player who wants to improve, go up in Rio but doesn’t have the class that allows him because groups don’t invite you.
People who are convinced when they write that classes are balanced as never before make me laugh.

This is a player not a blizzard issue. In some hypothetical land where every spec is within a few % of eachother, guess what, people would still pick the 5 best specs and ignore every other one. It’s not a balance issue, it’s literally a human psychology issue.

@Døøse-nemesis

Or, do you have to switch Pet after casting BL and engaging the boss to get another defensive cd?

The fact you just listed multiple hunter defensives is a reason why it’s not a huge issue. And no, you dismiss pet pre pull > cast lust in the last second > continue as normal/summon fort pet, not a big deal.

@Døøse-nemesis

I think differently,
Losing 9% critical and 90% attack power is no small feat.

I don’t think you understand what frenzy stacks do. The fact you think it’s 90% attack power shows this. I’ve linked numerous sims showing how low impact it actually is, you guys just argue with ‘feelings’.

@Døøse-nemesis

You want me to believe you’ve never lost a stack of Frenzy?
Not even in the face of the overlapping of multiple mechanics that put you in serious difficulty and you couldn’t refresh it to survive?
When you come across slow healers, perhaps because they think that overhealing a tank is the right thing, or because they are in trouble and don’t heal you, you are also forced to use two defensive cds as well.
And 7 seconds of time to refresh the stacks is not an infinite amount of time
But speak as an MM please and don’t hide behind the fact
that you use all three specs because it is clear that the main one is MM and you made the highest keys from MM. XD

None of the things you listed are on the GCD. You have unlimited mobility and unless you are clicking, you are able to do two things at once. Even losing one global to exhil you still have 6-7 more globals to refresh. And again…even if you don’t refresh, not the end of the world.

@Døøse-nemesis

But speak as an MM please and don’t hide behind the fact

Oh god not this stupidity again. Some of us don’t pigeonhole ourselves into one single spec and play multiple.

[Døøse-nemesis]

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

This is a player not a blizzard issue. In some hypothetical land where every spec is within a few % of eachother, guess what, people would still pick the 5 best specs and ignore every other one. It’s not a balance issue, it’s literally a human psychology issue.

But what psychological issue?
Are we talking about facts and what does human psychology have to do with all this?
If the Hunter is not chosen it is because it is a class, which due to a whole series of negative variables, is not chosen.
There is nothing else to add.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

I don’t think you understand what frenzy stacks do. The fact you think it’s 90% attack power shows this. I’ve linked numerous sims showing how low impact it actually is, you guys just argue with ‘feelings’.

As usual you are off track.
The damage lost is marginal if you rarely lose some stacks but during a M+, if you lose them more frequently, the loss will be substantial.
This I meant but, as you usually do, you go on to another topic losing sight of the main theme AS the one related to the sentence you wrote when you ask how it is possible to lose a stack of frenzies.
Try to play BM as often as you play MM and I’m pretty sure you’ll definitely lose some stacks of Frenzys too.
We’re all good at talking and knowing everything… right?

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

The fact you just listed multiple hunter defensives is a reason why it’s not a huge issue.

The fact that I have mentioned the so-called defensive does not imply that they are efficient, on the contrary I consider them obsolete and with an absurd recovery time.
Are they enough for you?
Well, most players who play Hunter aren’t.
So, as mentioned on another occasion, you’re out of the pack.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

And no, you dismiss pet pre pull > cast lust in the last second > continue as normal/summon fort pet, not a big deal.

Pre pull?
Yes,because in pug you have the chance to the do the prepull -dismiss pet,infact tank does a countdown…
Not a big deal in premade but it’s definitely boring to do all that to recover a defensive cd.

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

You have unlimited mobility and unless you are clicking, you are able to do two things at once.

And, as we wanted to demonstrate, you missed all that part where I was talking about overlapping mechanics that don’t allow you to refresh the stacks, because, perhaps, the situation is objectively difficult to manage, you can’t do it and you have to survive .
The Hunter’s mobility has become too acclaimed.
As mentioned before, as long as the healer doesn’t heal you because he’s sleeping or because he’s in trouble, you’re forced to use two defensive cds and you risk losing the stacks of frenzys
I prefer to cast Aimed shot from MM rather than refreshing frenzy stacks as I find it more difficult in certain circumstances like the ones mentioned above

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

Oh god not this stupidity again. Some of us don’t pigeonhole ourselves into one single spec and play multiple.

O God YES!
Preferring one spec over another doesn’t mean pigeonholing into just one.
At the same time, whoever plays more specs does not necessarily mean performing equally with all those used, especially if a spec is used rarely and only occasionally compared to the one used mainly

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

@Døøse-nemesis

The damage lost is marginal if you rarely lose some stacks but during a M+, if you lose them more frequently, the loss will be substantial.

I’m curious. If blizzard completely removed frenzy stacks from the game (we can keep thrill for simplicity sake), as in pressing barbed absolutely no longer gave ANY pet stacks at all for the ENTIRE key, how much of a damage decrease do you think it would be? Let’s say 5 targets.

10%? 20%? 40%? 90%?

Since you are the BM hunter and i’m just ‘clearly an mm favoured hunter!!’ I assume you’d know.

[Døøse-nemesis]

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

@Døøse-nemesis

The damage lost is marginal if you rarely lose some stacks but during a M+, if you lose them more frequently, the loss will be substantial.

I’m curious. If blizzard completely removed frenzy stacks from the game (we can keep thrill for simplicity sake), as in pressing barbed absolutely no longer gave ANY pet stacks at all for the ENTIRE key, how much of a damage decrease do you think it would be? Let’s say 5 targets.

10%? 20%? 40%? 90%?

Since you are the BM hunter and i’m just ‘clearly an mm favoured hunter!!’ I assume you’d know.

I don’t know how to quantify because I don’t have the means to do it and a simulation is not reliable because in an M+ it depends on the number of mobs that are engaged.
So I can’t say :Let’s say 5 mobs"
Of course, as is our habit, we went on to other topics that have little in common with the thread I opened.
I ask again the question and above all to the developers:
Since the Hunter is not an appetizing class to bring to the high M+ (high not in an absolute sense…) is there a possibility to change this situation or will only the Meta classes of the game continue?
Is there a possibility for them to listen to the numerous complaints, also strongly present in the American forum, and to devote the right attention to a class that has been forgotten?
I think this question is legitimate and shared by many

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

Ok, can make it even simpler.

you hit 5 targets for 5 mins. What is the % damage loss from dire frenzy stacks no longer giving absolutely anything?

Just a rough number, a guess is fine.

[Døøse-nemesis]

@Jerby-bronze-dragonflight

Ok, can make it even simpler.

you hit 5 targets for 5 mins. What is the % damage loss from dire frenzy stacks no longer giving absolutely anything?

Just a rough number, a guess is fine.

Dear Gerby, do you still want me to fall into the off topic trap?
I don’t care to know but I was leveraging on other issues and not on the insignificant loss of frenzies stacks.

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

How is it off topic, one of your literal examples of why hunter is bad defensively not only from you but also from at least one other poster, is that ‘I might drop frenzy!!!’ and then when I try to combat this you literally won’t engage at all even with a simple guess.

If you have absolutely no idea how much damage it gives that’s completely fine and most won’t, but you can’t then use it as an argument and get upset when somebody questions it.

I could also point out absolute sillyness in some other points too but it’s clear you have absolutely no interest in properly engaging on any of them.

[Døøse-nemesis]

But on what should I improve to understand?
You speak in absolute dogmas and you are overconvinced of what you say.
I don’t agree on several of your ideas and that’s okay but if we always talk about the same things on which we don’t agree and what’s the point?
How did you answer the hunter problem in pug?
That it’s the psychological nature of people to bring the strongest classes in the game to Pug?
And so?
You wondered after answering this way what kind of additional information or contribution did you provide.
Or, for the sake of it, you insist on the question of high keys, believing that 22+ are not high but are not far from 20, when my speech concerned something else or the impossibility of being grouped in pug for a class which is full of problems and is not modified well by the developers.
Do you understand the general discourse of the topic or do you go down alleys and alleys because you want to demonstrate that you always know things?
Come on, let’s cut it…

[Jerby-bronze-dragonflight (Jerby)]

@Døøse-nemesis

Do you understand the general discourse of the topic or do you go down alleys and alleys because you want to demonstrate that you always know things?

So you don’t want anybody challenging you on any of the super weak points you make, got it.

Hunter’s struggle to get into keys because in 2023 meta gaming WoW land anything other than the perceived (might not actually even be the case ironically) best few/meta specs are simply not considered. This is not a blizzard issue, this is a player issue. Next season hunters might be 10x better and instead of hunters being upset about a lack of invites, it will just be shadow priests or whatever is weaker instead. There will always be multiple classes that get less invites, no matter how balanced the game is.