Mage vs every other caster in M+

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Uda-uldum

The cause of class imbalance is literally Blizz trying to do what you say, or dealing with the legacy of an old system which used to be like you said. With tradeoffs.

But there is no trade-off.
There is no spec X has Y therefore they do less DMG.

Mages have everything, Rogues have everything… Mages where strong in M+ but got buffed because they damage in raid was not high enough.

If there was a tradeoff, ele-shamans would do the most dmg in raid, because they are squishy + they dont have any unique raid utility… which btw is also the reason you havnt seen them in world firsts for years.

In moddern wow they stick to certain classes, give them everything and the rest is hoping that they are once in a 3 years are meta.

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Regarding your post:
Blink is more of a flavor ability like you suggested, its a mobility spell, with its own flavor, it has nothing to do with my suggestions.

Also I would like to point out that we can add more mechanics to dungeons that actually let have different classes different strenghts.

It was stupid that mass-dispell was so strong because it could cheese so much staff at once, while we for example have tremor-totem that rarely gets used by blizzard.

The question is…why not? They could easily make every dungeon doable and build in multiple mechanics that classes can deal with differently… not the Class X does 90% of the mechanics that are in the system right now, while the others have to deal with it.

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@Uda-uldum

This is how it should work in reality and I will give 1 example: Mana regen.

ALL healers need a way to recover mana in combat. That is not a debate.

Agreed, but thats not what I mean.

@Uda-uldum

There cant be healers that do more HPS but less mana regen, or less HPS but more mana regen

Agreed, but that again is not what I want. I want every role do their role without problems…

@Uda-uldum

Or more or less tanky. That would in practice make certain dungeons unhealable by some classes… which is a horrendous outcome…

for tankyness, I disagree. We had multiple instances where certain classes could be less tanky and still perform well.

For that again: The basics have to be fullfilled.
It doesnt have to be like in legion BRH where the last boss oneshots everyone that doesnt have atleast 2-3 deff cds.

@Uda-uldum

To add that “class magic” that you so desire, what needs to change is HOW you recover mana. For example: MW has mana tea, Shaman has Resurgence, and RDruid has moonkin/cat form.

Agreed.

@Uda-uldum

Another one that is open to debate is the DPS a healer can do. And you can see what happens if some healers can DPS while healing, while others cant. Its not a coincidence that the only 3 classes that can do it are currently the meta.

Yes, and disc had this design for years and was rarely meta in M+…

I personally would like when healers that cant do dmg while healing would do more dmg when they have actually time to do dmg.

The healer meta has shifted quite a lot over the time if I remember correct. I am no healer so I wont pretend to know why.

But I am also pretty sure that MW was also not a healer that was meta often.

Again: I dont want big differences, or that classes cant handle certain things…

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Uda-uldum

But why is that a problem? Shamans have that 60% DR too.

Ellipsìs answered quite well: Mages have a big pallet of Def-CDs allready.

While for shamans it is kinda the only reliable deff-CD we have.

@Uda-uldum

Still did not answer me the question. Give me 1 example.

Another example would be. BRH in Legion on high-keys.
The Shadowbolt-Volley of the last Boss used to one-shot people, if you had no Deff-CD.

I had to use the Barrier-Legendary to survive that boss + an external CD or I would flatout died at the 3 volley. Which is the main-reason why this boss was allmost impossible to do with classes that had low survivalbility… and why immunities back than were so important…

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Another example would be. BRH in Legion on high-keys.

In high keys even AFTER the group gets the 300% damage buff the DoT from the volley is still slaughtering people. You kinda need to have something for every volley or your healer needs a major healing cd ready.

Most dungeon bosses are built around big damage events / overlaps coming in roughly every 20-45 seconds. Once you get high enough those events become “personal or die” and if your spec doesn’t have enough personals to get through, you did just die.

The 3rd boss of Nokhud was another good example.

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

In high keys even AFTER the group gets the 300% damage buff the DoT from the volley is still slaughtering people. You kinda need to have something for every volley or your healer needs a major healing cd ready.

I was gonna ask you, if thats still the case, since in tyrannical they still do so much dmg. (If I remember correct it was not a dot in legion, but a direct big hit, that oneshot. So no deff-CD =death )

Sadly I havent had the chance to go high-keys this season, due to RL issues I am behind in gear (460 ilvl) so I run only 18+ right now <.<

WHY I CANT GET ANY UPDATES? cries in unlucky

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

I was gonna ask you, if thats still the case, since in tyrannical they still do so much dmg. (If I remember correct it was not a dot in legion, but a direct big hit, that oneshot. So no deff-CD =death )

There was always a dot, it just didn’t really do much at the scaling levels the rest of the key allowed you to reach. The DoT is more dangerous than the direct hit now by far after the first one.

[Bigbazz-tarren-mill (Bigbazz)]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

I was not speaking about BM. and BM is not the only hunterspec

Of course but a spec having more than one dps spec that Blizzard cares about by more than accident is rare, I’m not sure they intended all 3 Mage specs to be godly (if you look at raid performance too). BM is the flavour of the season Hunter spec, and it’s incredible right now due to that super high damage and ease of play, versatile damage profile, even if it is a step below the Mage/Rogue/Warlock/DH overall.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

What if mage does the same dmg as hunters? What would be the point in bringing them, they are way more squishy while also offering less for the group.

Well yeah but this is a larger question about the game, BM is relatively well placed at the moment by default of being so good damage wise. Even if BM does have weaknesses that drop it below other specs, damage is king.

I don’t think Blizzard has done a good job balancing damage/survival/utility, especially not with affixes like afflicted that flat out can’t be dealt with by some specs.

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Classes need to be balanced with Tankiness and Utility in mind if it comes to M+

Of course, but why highlight BM hunter when the overall package is really good? People are here fighting the cause and with pitchforks over Warlocks being slightly worse than Mages while Uda is trying to argue that the only reason nobody takes an Arms Warrior to a raid/dungeon has nothing to do with spec performance

Also, weren’t you a Warrior main, you used to make PvP guides?

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Bigbazz-tarren-mill

Of course, but why highlight BM hunter when the overall package is really good?

Again, this was just an example to compare a class that has low utility and, low deff. It was just the first one that came to mind.

I dont particulary want to say anything about BM-Hunter. Just about the overloaded mage kit

@Bigbazz-tarren-mill

Even if BM does have weaknesses that drop it below other specs, damage is king.

DMG is a king till you either die or have specs that are close to your dmg but have more to offer. Atm the higher M+ is more about surviving and utility than it is about doing enough dmg.

Its literally the reason why Aug is so strong.

@Bigbazz-tarren-mill

Also, weren’t you a Warrior main, you used to make PvP guides?

I used to main warrior back in wotlk-MoP, but I didnt wrote any guides. My name was also not even close to the DKs

[Uda-uldum]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

In high keys?

Die.

Or burn healer externals (Which will run out) / pray they’re playing with augmentation evoker for the free 10% DR and maybe rescue shield.

OK. So a mage can survive some mechanic in a 30. Everyone else cant do it on 30, only on 29. Let me cry a river here… If that is the case, it seems pretty well balanced to me.

In practice it means that any spec can do up to 1 key level less than what the top 100 people are doing. Which is nice IMO !!!

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

I remember planning out defensives for Tyrannical Leymore at the start of the expansion, most of us were living by hairs or relying on perfect play + healer externals to live stomps.

Yeah well, so was I and everyone else. Doing 22s with 447 gear. Of course that was the case. But specs were not balanced with sub-par gear in mind. Specks were balanced with 486 gear in mind.

Hardly a good example.

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

Yalnu would be the obvious example currently but this season specifically most bosses that deal unavoidable damage are getting to that point. The mage boss, the witches coven, WM tree, throne of the tides 1st boss.

What level? Cause in M+, an infinitely scalable game mode its not surprising that eventually you stumble onto mechanics that 1-shot you and requires perfect use of defensives, gearing up vers specifically, ect…

Give me 1 case, for a boss in say… any 27 (escuding RISE cause its mega hard) where a mage can survive a mechanic nobody else can. And why.

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

WM tree

Excluding this because its gonna get hotfixed for sure. Mage blink is OP there (as I said before).

[Uda-uldum]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

I personally would like when healers that cant do dmg while healing would do more dmg when they have actually time to do dmg.

And this proves why tradeoffs are bad. Lets imagine that case for a minute.

We got a simplified disc that does DPS and 40% of that heals. And then we got a simplified RShaman that does 0 damage when healing, but whenever he does cast something it absolutely slaps.

In the end, the idea is that overall dps is the same. OK. Got it.

What happens then when you get a specific comp that requires little to no healing every 1-2 min windows? Using Mage barrier, shields, off-healing and a Aug evoker?

Well turns out that RShaman would slap so hard that it would top dps meters above dpses themselves. Egs of that: RDruid after kitty buffs some weeks ago. Doing 140k dps on ST…

Or bosses like the 1st one of EB, BRH, AD, ect… RShaman would slap so hard there that it would scrape like 4 minutes off the timer just by having an RShaman there.

In fact, Rezan with 4 DDs and BL is THE strat they used to time AD in +30. If you give 1 healer the ability to do just that for every boss, it would be a clear winner.

IF you pair it up with a specific comp: The NEW god comp.

And that is why, ALL healers need some form of DPS WHILE healing. Otherwise, you will find ways to exploit that such that you have some form of 4rth DPS.

In fact… this already existed… Check out Battle Shaman… And what happens when you do things like this. And why it was nerfed REALLY hard, really fast.

[Uda-uldum]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Another example would be. BRH in Legion on high-keys.
The Shadowbolt-Volley of the last Boss used to one-shot people, if you had no Deff-CD.

I had to use the Barrier-Legendary to survive that boss + an external CD or I would flatout died at the 3 volley. Which is the main-reason why this boss was allmost impossible to do with classes that had low survivalbility… and why immunities back than were so important…

Dont give me examples of stuff that happened in Legion… Its DF.

And BRH exists in the current dungeon pool. And beleive me that there is not a single spec that cant survive the volley of the last boss in keys 1 less than the top 100.

In other words, EVERY class can survive say… BRH29 and less. If they cant, its L2P or lack of coordination. Simple as that.

[Binar-quelthalas]

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

I just played +20 and destro did 88k overall(477ilvl)

Then this person did not have a clue how to play. they could have done single target all the way through the dungeon and still hit this dps.
This is just a player that has no idea how to play.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Uda-uldum

Yeah well, so was I and everyone else. Doing 22s with 447 gear. Of course that was the case. But specs were not balanced with sub-par gear in mind. Specks were balanced with 486 gear in mind.

By start of the expansion I meant season 1, we were in all in full BIS needing full tree clears and healers having to pre top us meanwhile the mage is just vibing.

I just don’t get why they have so many defensives when it’s not to make up for low mobility, low damage, or low utility.

[Falsejaina-ragnaros]

Yeah, no doubt, yet Breaths on those keys only meet Op warlocks

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Ellipsìs-tarren-mill

I just don’t get why they have so many defensives when it’s not to make up for low mobility, low damage, or low utility.

Not to mention that mage used to be a squishy class… one of the most squishy ones at that.

[Breaths-twisting-nether]

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

Yeah, no doubt, yet Breaths on those keys only meet Op warlocks

you’re free to do some 20s to see if i’m right :))

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

eah, because Breaths says that we should balance around bad players, and btw, just chatting, since I don’t like the game rn, may I?

i never said this please don’t put words into my mouth.
i ssaid they should balance around average difficulty level.

@Uda-uldum

OK. So a mage can survive some mechanic in a 30. Everyone else cant do it on 30, only on 29. Let me cry a river here… If that is the case, it seems pretty well balanced to me.

the weirdest part is nerfing mage utility won’t make other classes better lol they’ll still struggle. these people act like top ele shaman can’t find a group to push +30 AND mages are the reason for it lol.

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Uda-uldum

And this proves why tradeoffs are bad.

Even if its 1 bad idea, 1 bad part would not completely make the others invalid.

@Uda-uldum

Lets imagine that case for a minute.

sure.

@Uda-uldum

We got a simplified disc that does DPS and 40% of that heals. And then we got a simplified RShaman that does 0 damage when healing, but whenever he does cast something it absolutely slaps.

In the end, the idea is that overall dps is the same. OK. Got it.

What happens then when you get a specific comp that requires little to no healing every 1-2 min windows? Using Mage barrier, shields, off-healing and a Aug evoker?

Well turns out that RShaman would slap so fking hard that it would top dps meters above dpses themselves. Egs of that: RDruid after kitty buffs some weeks ago. Doing 140k dps on ST…

Or bosses like the 1st one of EB, BRH, AD, ect… RShaman would slap so fking hard there that it would scrape like 4 minutes off the timer just by having an RShaman there.

In fact, Rezan with 4 DDs and BL is THE strat they used to time AD in +30. If you give 1 healer the ability to do just that for every boss, it would be a clear winner.

Puuuuh, there are multiple ways to prevent this.

1. We dont make healers do as much damage as DPS.
2. We reduce the defenses/self-sustain of certain classes.
3. We make healers have to heal more.
4. We dont overdo the numbers.

Basically the right tuning is important.

I want to mention that we also have/had seasons where Dmg was not the most important factor of a healer. We had meta healers that didnt do as much damage as others.

I can totally understand this, and as a DPS/Tank main I am not qualified enough to judge that on a higher level. But again, even if we scrap the whole damange while healing idea (which wont happen, we both know it) the other trade offs in balancing utility, damage, deff etc can easily work.

@Uda-uldum

In fact… this already existed… Check out Battle Shaman… And what happens when you do things like this. And why it was nerfed REALLY hard, really fast.

I googled it didnt found stuff that I think you wanted to show me, plz post a link so I can entertain myself.

[Saikyoo-venoxis]

@Breaths-twisting-nether

the weirdest part is nerfing mage utility won’t make other classes better lol they’ll still struggle. these people act like top ele shaman can’t find a group to push +30 AND mages are the reason for it lol.

Me explain:

Class X op. Whatever reason. Class Y bad. Group not invite Class Y. Class Y sad.

Blizz nerf Class X. Now onpar Class Y. Group now consider Class Y. Class Y happy.

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Yes, nerfing mage wont make people invite Ele because Ele sucks. But it for sure will help to open a slot for other classes on higher keys.

Because as soon a class is S-Tier it gets a spot in groups and locks classes out that are below. On higher levels that means no invites for B-Tier specs in pugs, when there is S-Tier. If you are lucky you get invited as A+ -Tier.

It doesnt matter if you can time 20-25 + easily with every spec. People will invite the classes that make your life easier.

Here how it was when I was Ele in S1 and no longer had a group (it was quite early of the season and I did 20+ before):
Me trying to join groups for M+ 18 → I get a whisper : Enhc? → ME: Ele → Group: declined. REPEAT

Than I quit.

And yes, playing with the right classes makes it that much easier.

Another example: My friend is a fury warrior with high gear and he does 95+ parses
And he got outdpsed by a DH with worse gear at the start of the season.

It also feels horrible that one class ascends above the rest by having everythign while the others dont.

So yes, Nerfing the top-dogs makes every class a that is considered good feel better (And we have quite a lot of A-Tiers this season)

[Breaths-twisting-nether]

@Saikyoo-venoxis

Class X op. Whatever reason. Class Y bad. Group not invite Class Y. Class Y sad.

so you want every spec to equally suck ?

[Falsejaina-ragnaros]

@Breaths-twisting-nether

you’re free to do some 20s to see if i’m right :))

That was on +20

@Breaths-twisting-nether

the weirdest part is nerfing mage utility won’t make other classes better

It will be and they will be more welcome to the keys. Saikyoo already explained

[Breaths-twisting-nether]

@Falsejaina-ragnaros

It will be and they will be more welcome to the keys.

loooooool okay