Mag'har Unlock - Inconsistencies and Impossibilities

05/11/2018 15:12Posted by Anthropea
Let's be real here: You wouldn't be able to write a post that's even 1/10th as good as the OPs. Don't go around acting all high-and-mighty, saying stuff like "I can deconstruct your post in a few mins, I'm just too lazy to do it". The OP literally gave 3+ sources on each statement he made, backed it up with proper grammar and fluent speech. You're incapable of even showing a shred of respect for his hard work (which probably took several hours). If I were you, I'd shut my ungrateful mouth and go read some of Zarao's brainless fanfic topics instead.

kudos to you

a lot of your points have merit

you point out a lot of flaws in it

I wasn't sarcastic when I made those remarks. I stated that a lot of his post had merit, I stated that he points out a lot that's wrong with the scenario and I congratulate him on something well-written that clearly has a lot of effort and thought put into it.

Allow me to state right now, since the above wasn't clear enough, that I think that Yiqiandiren's post is very well-written, that I respect him for it and that I don't think I would be able to create a post of the same quality, so I won't try. Instead, I posted my concerns in a shorter format.

Hopefully that makes my feelings on the matter clearer.
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It is almost like Blizzard selectively upholds and suspends the logical consistency of their world solely to favor the Horde.
05/11/2018 13:59Posted by Ajaxandriel
05/11/2018 13:51Posted by Ashval
Oh no, the Horde is portrayed sympathetically and not as genocidal maniacs, and Alliance races are shown as capable of evil deeds. The purity of the Aryans- I mean, the Alliance is stained! Quickly, make the Horde commit more war crimes!
If you had one ounce of respect for the orc lore you would be ashamed of your own pseudo irony, while advocating for that utter mess.

OP does have a point when it comes to the story that led to the questline (dragons should not help mortals), but seriously? The Light being portrayed as villains and the orcs as heroes is "lore inconsistency"? The Lightbound are a great antagonist, the Mag'har are decent protagonists, the idea of the "Tyranny of the Light" is excellent and a much-needed breath of fresh air in this time of black and white morality.

Also, people often vilify the Iron Horde too much - probably by association with the Old Horde, which did pretty terrible things. Out of all major antagonists in the game, they were easily the least evil; the Iron Horde was just a conquering empire, not some demonic force that wanted to exterminate all life. They also got a pretty sympathetic backstory in Lords of War, and most of their victims (ogres, arakkoa) basically had it coming for how they treated the orcs.
new lore > old lore
05/11/2018 13:58Posted by Frozenshadow

The Iron Horde's actions should not be forgotten, especially when the leader of them now is still the same leader as them back then. Even now they still brutally occupy the Orges and force them to serve, killing any who speak up.

Holding accountable the entire mag'har race for the actions of their leadership, which was manipulated by an outside force, while at the same time sympathising with the ogres, who have been attacking and enslaving the orcs for generations? In the span of two sentences? We are reaching peak void elf here, gentlemen.
05/11/2018 14:35Posted by Taxania
But what if the creation of the AU is a part of the true timeline even if the AU itself is not of the timeline, and the Mag'har from the AU are required to fulfill a certain role in the future of the true timeline? If that is the case, then the Bronze Dragonflight is fulfilling its role by moving the Mag'har from the AU to the true timeline so that they can do their part.

This just could be Anachronos ensuring that everything happens as it is meant to, even if it requires his interference and bias towards one faction over another at a specific point in time.


If the creation of AU Draenor was meant to be the case then they wouldn't hold Kairozdormu in such low regardless nor would it "stain them" because it is all part of the main timelines events. No would Draenor be stated as a anomaly within the Universe and lastly it wouldn't be fading as we speak.

I don't see how the alternate timeline was not meant to be part of this timeline yet the people living on it are. You can't pick and choose what part of the alternate timeline was meant to be or not. Either it is all meant to be or none of it.

05/11/2018 16:30Posted by Ashval
Holding accountable the entire mag'har race for the actions of their leadership, which was manipulated by an outside force, while at the same time sympathising with the ogres, who have been attacking and enslaving the orcs for generations? In the span of two sentences?


Oh lol, you are actually referring to Garrosh as the outside force manipulating events? Grom was a nutcase regardless of outside interference, Garrosh just gave him the push he needed. It wasn't like he was tricked or manipulated or controlled. He gave his father the tools for him to go off on his genocidal conquest of Draenor and Azeroth.

They clearly have not learnt from their ways considering they are holding the Orges under a brutal occupation which no one is allowed to speak up from in fear of being killed. Now they come to our planet to kill the people what spared his and the Iron Hordes lifes because..? Oh wait they are being manipulated and lied to by the Horde. They are a bunch of cowards what fled their planet rather than fight against the Lightbound.

Yes they haven't earned anything back, if anything they are just as bad as before and should have been killed.

05/11/2018 16:30Posted by Ashval
We are reaching peak void elf here, gentlemen.


I can keep my whispers in che-kill them all-ek I promise! Anyway ye at least I use my powers for good:P.
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05/11/2018 16:18Posted by Ashval
The Light being portrayed as villains and the orcs as heroes is "lore inconsistency"?

Yes, thats the very definition of lore inconsistency.

05/11/2018 16:18Posted by Ashval
The Lightbound are a great antagonist, the Mag'har are decent protagonists, the idea of the "Tyranny of the Light" is excellent and a much-needed breath of fresh air in this time of black and white morality.

You hadnt enought morally greynees from BfA and your corpse leader?

05/11/2018 16:18Posted by Ashval
Also, people often vilify the Iron Horde too much - probably by association with the Old Horde, which did pretty terrible things. Out of all major antagonists in the game, they were easily the least evil; the Iron Horde was just a conquering empire, not some demonic force that wanted to exterminate all life. They also got a pretty sympathetic backstory in Lords of War, and most of their victims (ogres, arakkoa) basically had it coming for how they treated the orcs.

FFS I just cant believe what I am reading. Your mental gymnastics skill is so developed that you can even believe your own lies. Astonishing!
Just a conquering empire? Are you ignoring the fact that they almost wiped all the Draenei who never did nothing agains the orcs? By association with the old Horde?? Nope dude, the Iron Horde earned their title of evil by their own acts and they were as evil as GulDans Horde or even worse, because they did al that terrible things (you know, try to melt down all the Draenei, corrupt an Naaru etc) WHITOUT any fel corrupting their blood.
Ill tell you more, Garrosh was an Mag'har, the general that blew up a grove full of innocent druids was and Mag'har, Nazgrim was an Mag'har.
If you want a Mag'har lore being heroes and not a bloody brainless jackasses, write a post, as good as OPs one, and convince Blizz.
Yeah, I would have argued with you, if not for the sheer density of factual and argumentative errors you commit per sentence. Just to name a few: Nazgrim is not a mag'har, "less evil" does not mean "good", and Sylvanas being called morally grey is an ironic joke on the fact that she isn't, she's pure evil. Sorry, not worth the effort.

I am not even sure if you are a troll, or just that myopic.

Oh lol, you are actually referring to Garrosh as the outside force manipulating events? Grom was a nutcase regardless of outside interference, Garrosh just gave him the push he needed. It wasn't like he was tricked or manipulated or controlled. He gave his father the tools for him to go off on his genocidal conquest of Draenor and Azeroth.

They clearly have not learnt from their ways considering they are holding the Orges under a brutal occupation which no one is allowed to speak up from in fear of being killed. Now they come to our planet to kill the people what spared his and the Iron Hordes lifes because..? Oh wait they are being manipulated and lied to by the Horde. They are a bunch of cowards what fled their planet rather than fight against the Lightbound.

Yes they haven't earned anything back, if anything they are just as bad as before and should have been killed.

Ah, so using a twisted vision of the future with some parts omitted to play on Grommash's weaknesses isn't manipulation? Then what is?

Grommash has clearly tried to atone for his actions by working with the draenei; it is not his fault that they backstabbed his people. If you believe this to be the just punishment for the orcs' past crimes, then why do you criticise the subjugation of the ogres? Why are ogres exonerated from enslaving orcs for generations, of their own volition?
05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
Ah, so using a twisted vision of the future with some parts omitted to play on Grommash's weaknesses isn't manipulation? Then what is?


What part was a "twisted vision of the future" exactly? Manipulation would imply that Garrosh was using Grom for his own means without him fully knowing. If anything it was a partnership between the 2 rather then 1 using the other.

05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
Grommash has clearly tried to atone for his actions by working with the draenei; it is not his fault that they backstabbed his people.


That awaits to be seen who actually stuck first, I am not going to trust a mass murdering genocidal psychopath with anything they say. That is like me saying that Yrel is true that they are destroying the planet which gives them the justification to stop the Orc's through conversion.

05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
If you believe this to be the just punishment for the orcs' past crimes, then why do you criticise the subjugation of the ogres? Why are ogres exonerated from enslaving orcs for generations, of their own volition?


The Orges are not doing what they did in the past such as enslavement. Yet the Iron Horde are still doing the same as they did in the past. And they are now fighting the people what spared them in the first place all because Sylvanas and Etrigg are manipulating them into fighting "with honor" against "tyrants".

But if I had my own way I would let Yrel's Lightbound purge you all.
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05/11/2018 19:32Posted by Ashval
Yeah, I would have argued with you, if not for the sheer density of factual and argumentative errors you commit per sentence. Just to name a few: Nazgrim is not a mag'har, "less evil" does not mean "good", and Sylvanas being called morally grey is an ironic joke on the fact that she isn't, she's pure evil. Sorry, not worth the effort.

I am not even sure if you are a troll, or just that myopic.

True, Nazgrim wasnt Mag´har, he was an Kor´kron I was wrong here.
I have not said at any moment that ¨less evil¨ means ¨good¨, thats came from your imagination.
When talking about morally greyness I stated clearly the corpse and the whole BfA. True she is pure evil, but BfA is full of moral greyness. You have omitted this fact deliberately.
As you can see, you understood from my post whatever you wanted, not what I was talking about. Thats what I call mental gymnastics.

05/11/2018 20:22Posted by Frozenshadow
05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
Ah, so using a twisted vision of the future with some parts omitted to play on Grommash's weaknesses isn't manipulation? Then what is?


What part was a "twisted vision of the future" exactly? Manipulation would imply that Garrosh was using Grom for his own means without him fully knowing. If anything it was a partnership between the 2 rather then 1 using the other.

05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
Grommash has clearly tried to atone for his actions by working with the draenei; it is not his fault that they backstabbed his people.


That awaits to be seen who actually stuck first, I am not going to trust a mass murdering genocidal psychopath with anything they say. That is like me saying that Yrel is true that they are destroying the planet which gives them the justification to stop the Orc's through conversion.

05/11/2018 19:54Posted by Ashval
If you believe this to be the just punishment for the orcs' past crimes, then why do you criticise the subjugation of the ogres? Why are ogres exonerated from enslaving orcs for generations, of their own volition?


The Orges are not doing what they did in the past such as enslavement. Yet the Iron Horde are still doing the same as they did in the past. And they are now fighting the people what spared them in the first place all because Sylvanas and Etrigg are manipulating them into fighting "with honor" against "tyrants".

But if I had my own way I would let Yrel's Lightbound purge you all.


Do not even bother yourself answering him. His mental gymnastics skills will let him to avoid any thing you throw at him: lore facts, common sense, in and out of character NPC attitude... I know that kind of people, pointless to discuss anything with them.
True, Nazgrim wasnt Mag´har, he was an Kor´kron I was wrong here.

What does that even mean? No, scrap that, what does "being Mag'har" even mean except being uncorrupted? You use main universe examples to show what, that Mag'har Orcs are more inclined to do bad things?

05/11/2018 18:50Posted by Aule
Ill tell you more, Garrosh was an Mag'har, the general that blew up a grove full of innocent druids was and Mag'har, Nazgrim was an Mag'har.

They were just Orcs.

When talking about morally greyness I stated clearly the corpse and the whole BfA. True she is pure evil, but BfA is full of moral greyness. You have omitted this fact deliberately.

To be honest, you have stated your point rather poorly. You said:

You hadnt enought morally greynees from BfA and your corpse leader?

Implying that Sylvanas, aka "corpse leader", is 'producing' moral greyness, while you contradict this statement in your last reply.
I like your analysis it seems very well throught and structured however everything could be understood if you look at it in a different way.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Anachronos: "Is it time for you to visit me already? Yes, I suppose it is then."


Take this for example, the hint is in his question. Now I had this asgument before about how WoD should have never happened since a bronze dragon was the cause and they were supposed to preserve the timeline and not mess with it. However the moment that event happened and connected to our timeline it became part of it.

Which means Anachronos from his vision of time he knows that the mag'har were supposed to come to our reality. So when the horde player goes to him and asks for help to him he is mearely keeping the timeline in the right flow because that is how it is supposed to happen.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Anachronos: "It was there that Gul'dan used a piece of the Vision of Time to travel between realities."


This is also when you think about it not that far fetched. Although it is true it was not explained how the Gul'dan came into possession of the shard, we know that at the beginning of the HfC events Gul'dan had emprisoned Grommash so it is not that far fetched that he got it off him then. And at the end it was used by archimonde to send him back to our Azerothe.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Eitrigg: "Durotan was chieftain of the Frostwolves. Never have I known a more honorable orc. He was a true leader who loved his people. I miss his wisdom."


Although Eitrigg might have not gotten too much contact with Durotan, however the latter was a very well know character in the old horde for his constant defience to first the formation of the horde and not fully embracing the war against the Draenei.
Also as you mentioned one other Blackrock orc had a much closer connection to both, Orgrimm, who really valued Durotan and held him to high esteam.
So one doesn't really need constant contact with another to miss his wisdom.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Eitrigg: "Heroes from my world once freed yours from the grip of tyrants." Now Azeroth faces a similar threat"


As for this, since Eitrigg is talking to Grom himself he obviously not referencing the iron horde but the Gul'dan and the legion. He obviously referencing Grom's "Draenor is free" from the end of HFC.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Eitrigg: "Now Azeroth faces a similar threat"


He is obviously exagerating the reality to get the help he needs. So why is this inconsistant? Someone asking for reinforcements in a war of course he will paint his side as the innocent side and the enemy as the monsters. There's nothing inconsistent about this.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Eitrigg: "You are the daughter of Durotan and Draka. I see them both in you."


As mentioned above Durotan and Draka were very well known amongst the old horde.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Geya'rah: "My father fell in battle to the Lightbound."
Shifting Alliances:


Once Gul'dan was killed the Draenei and the orcs remained on good terms. And Grommash decided to keep the horde unified in order to fight the remenant of the legion. Which from the scenario seems to have taken a not so short amount of time. In that period it is not that far fetched that Grom earned himself redemption for his past actions.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Geya'rah: "But without demons to fight, the draenei became fixated upon their precious Light. Their naaru masters compelled them to spread their influence among the orcs."
Inconsistent characters:


You can't say something is inconsistant and start your argument with assuming. If you open the door for assumtions you give up on inconsistancies. Also even if the characters are same their personalities aren't necessarily the same if the circumstances change the ones we met in Outland were in a very specific set of circumstances so you can't really expect them to behave the same.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Geya'rah: "The tyranny of the Light must be ended!"
Inconsistent portrayal:


In our reality and our interactions with the light we only faced the gentle face of the light. Or the naaru to be exact since the light is merely a primordial force of nature that can be used for good or bad, after all the light is used by priest and paladins as a weapon.

Also from the "thousand years war" audio book we get to visit worlds that were inslaved by the light and turned into cristalized barren deserts.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Geya'rah: "No... a naaru... Not again!" (as a Naaru casts some sort of area attack, shackling every orc. It is implied this will result in them turning to the Light.)
Inconsistent abilities:


This could simply be the same spell that X'era tried to use on Ilidan. Which makes it not that inconsistant.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Exarch Orelis: "Cease this pointless defiance, Mag'har!" (Entering in a Warframe)
Impossible technology:


Again assumption. You are assuming based on knowledge you have in a very specific set of circumstances. Once you remove those ciscumstances everything becomes possible. Also the draenei are a technologically very well advanced race if the few on Azerothe managed to create the Vindicar the ones remaining on AU Draenor have a better chance to create way better than warframes.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Geya'rah: "[...] until Draenor is free!"


It is not necessary that evry line is a reference to something else. Once you meat the Mag'har they are all that is left in a long war. So It is safe to assume that the other races were converted as well so it justy could mean what it is "until Draenor is free"

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Yrel: "The Light Mother has blessed me with visions."
Impossible contact:


This is explained in the Chronicles 3 in the definition of alternate realitites. Basically That AU revoleves around draenor and what is happening on it, there is no Azeroth, so there is no alliance expedition no Turalion an Alleria no war on argus the only mission of the light becomes to spread on Draenor.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
On the Draenei's supremacy over the planet
Inconsistent numbers:


Their suprimacy is based on the m being the once that are calling the shots. And as explained they are very advanced race with help from the very powerful being. Also they didn't start the war right away the y started the conversion by preaching and taking in those who embraced the light willingly many among them are orcs and other races them used them to fuel the war.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Grommash: "It is the Light that has doomed this world!"
Inconsistent portrayal:
The Light and its worship is ancient. The Draenei have been following it for millenia, and the humans centuries. It has saved the world on several occasions, and protected life more often than not.
Yet, after 30 years of Light worship on Draenor by Yrel, the planet becomes Light corrupted.


Actually the draenei only started worshiping the light after their exile from Argus. Priod to that all their civilization was based on the arcane.

Again the light is merely a primordial force of the universe it has no will the consequences of it's use falls on its weilder. Until now we only seen it in contrast to other powers used to nefarious goal. However in AU Draenor it is the only strong force unopposed unchecked and the naaru used it in the wrong way.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Yrel: "It pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash."
Thematically inconsistent:


35 years is the difference between the two events. If Grom attoned for his crime by helping Yrel fight the legion for 20 years then lived in peace for 10 years then the war started that makes him an old friend of hers. Nothing inconsistant about this.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
Sylvanas: "I trust honor means as much to you, as it does to him?"


In before the Storm it is stated that despide the fact that Sylvanas does not feel honor, or undertand it fully because of her state of undeath. She still remembers what it used to be and values is in others.

04/11/2018 17:18Posted by Yiqiandiren
About the "Mag'har"
Thematically inconsistent:


This could be a reference to them refusing to drink the blood on two occasions. Once at the begining and the other at the events of HFC.

Anyways you are simply reading way too much into it. It is simply a 30 minutes tops questline the informations given serve the intended purpose to get the Mag'har. Nothing in it really is way out of the way some information is simply not fully given to keep the length of the quest chaine consistent with the others I guess.

The biggest point that could be considered a mistery is the Gul'dan with the vision of time everything else could be considered nitpicking tbh.
Actually, that made me think. What would be "too much" morally grey? If the Horde and the Alliance were completely equal on the moral scale and committed roughly the same amount of evil acts, which I hold to be the ideal balance for a faction war story, would you consider it too much?