Mak'gora discussion

Lore Story
1

Hello Everyone.

I have seen many discussions about Mak’Gora, brought many times, when discussing other topics.

I was wondering, something hasn’t been discussed yet: the message such a event brings to our reality. This is the 21st century after all.

  • When Cairne challenged Garrosh to a Mak’gora, we had a Tauren challenging one Orc.
    The Orc was the Warchief and as already stated by other players, it’s their tradition

  • Thrall resumes his Mak’gora with Garrosh in AU Draenor.
    According to Brigante, Garrosh had already challenged Thrall to a Mak’gora before.
    Two Orcs that know the tradition.

Now let us look at the BfA scenario:
Sylvanas is the Warchief of the Horde, but she isn’t a Orc.
Blaine could had challenged her, but again he is no Orc.
Saurfang is a Orc but: would Sylvanas accept it ?
Honor is a tradition of the Thrall Orc Horde.

Forsaken don’t value such things.
They have quotes like:
“Death to the living.”
“Dark Lady watch over you.”
“Victory for Sylvanas.”

Where Orcs would say:
“For the Horde.”
“Speak friend.”
“Go with Honor.”

We have different cultures.
Orcs, Tauren and Trolls are tribalistic, where Forsaken are a different kind.

If we look the three races have shamans and respect the land they live on since they need to eat to survive.

Forsaken don’t need the land to prosper they are already dead.
If we look at Lordaeron the land is completely destroyed.
Honor means nothing to them.

A point I don’t see being brought on the discussion, that’s why I brought this discussion is our environment, our reality.
The lore is important, but it’s our values that determine it.

What is right, what is wrong.

Imagine that either Saurfang or Baine manages to kill Sylvanas in Mak’gora.

  • BfA is over.
    There’s no WoT, there’s no war with the Alliance, there’s no Kul-Tyrans or Zandalari.
    Next expansion, please ?

  • What message that would send to the feminist outside, people who would analyse the game, but don’t play it ?
    “Look at that big brute, savage, muscle Orc/Tauren killing that poor defenseless women …”

  • Has anyone noticed by the way Sylvanas outfit ?
    She is now more covered than ever.
    Look at Aleria in contrast.
    Why ?
    Maybe because Sylvanas has a huge fan base, unlike Aleria.
    I noticed the same situation for Jaina as well, with all due respect, as anyone noticed she is as covered as a nun now ?
    Again my point in this situation is: feminism.

What’s you opinion ?
Cheers.

3 Likes
2

I don’t think it is Feminism. I think there is a more basic reason why Baine and Sylvanas would not fight a Mak’gora.

Every single Mak’gora (Even the one in the comics where the Blood Elf doesn’t even know what a Mak’gora is) has one thing in common.

The person being challenged is an Orc. Almost always an underling challenging a superior, but that is the one common factor with every Mak’gora. We never see other races using it between themselves.

My theory on this makes a fair amount of sense if you think about it. Mak’gora is an alien tradition, not an Azeroth one. It has no place in Tauren culture, or Troll culture, or any culture apart from Orcish.

You can even tell this by the punishments for refusing a Mak’gora, which -specifically- only apply to Orcs. There would be absolutely no legal comeback to a Tauren, or a Blood Elf who was challenged to Mak’gora and just turned round and said “No”.

Which Orc Clan are they going to be kicked out of? They don’t have one. Sure, the Orcs wouldn’t like it, and politically the bad blood would be massive, but by their own Laws there is nothing they can do about it.

Equally, it seems they -only- recognise it as a valid way to challenge for leadership.

This is why every time we have seen it happen, the person being challenged is an Orc, and almost always the Superior in rank. (The first Thrall vs Garrosh is a bit of a grey area on that) . It is to make it legally binding in the eyes of every Orc.

So not only does Baine not have to challenge Sylvanas to Mak’gora, but Sylvanas is under no obligation to say ‘Yes.’

Neither of them would face any comeback, as Orcish law does not feature a way for there to -be- any comeback for a non-Orc to refuse Mak’gora.

Sylvanas has a very large fanbase, and in some cases it is not hard to guess why. I don’t think they will kill her, but not because of Feminism, in fact its the opposite. I’m not generalising, plenty of people like Sylvanas for her tragic story, her villainy, or just love the Undead Queen vibe, But then there are people, with the best will in the world, who like her because she is ‘hawt undead Waifu’. Those are the ones who would complain, if they axed Sylvanas, not Feminists. And those are the ones who are basing their fandom on what the character -looks- like, so objectifying her.

So its not the Feminists that would be outraged if Sylvanas was killed off, it is those who base their view of women based on appearance, so kind of the opposite.
I mean lets face it, Sylvanas is not exactly a positive role model, whether you are male or female…

8 Likes
3

puts on tinfoil hat

Turns out the Alliance and Horde were failing their gender quotas for leadership positions within each faction thus the real reason Allied Races were accept was because they were the easiest way to meeting goals.

That is why every Allied Race has a female leader or/and co-leader. I am on to you Blizzard.

11 Likes
5

Never Attribute to Malice That Which Is Adequately Explained by Stupidity.

While there are some social justice warriors or feminids undertones i do not believe Ms. golden has the pull to summong an entire feminid fleet at this time.
Meaby in the future but for now it is sheer incomptence that is the problem.

While it agree that is woudnt effect none orc race’s i think being the warchief is an execption.
Being the warchief(An other orc tradiation) means that you have to atleast pretend to care about orc tradiations.
If they dont then the horde will fall to infighting.
After all if the warchieft doesnt honor the horde founding traditions why is she warchief?

1 Like
6

puts Make Azeroth Great Again hat on

Sounds nice, doesn’t work.

7

https://i.redd.it/awuwt3bgxce11.png

Forsaken just killed another innocent farmer? You know what I say to that?

The wall has got 10 feet taller.

Either that or get the Orcs to build the wall, they do quite a nice job at making pavements at least.

1 Like
8

Meerah is the best role model for everybody.
“Dolly and Dot are my best friends, they pull wagon through dunes of sands…”

Well the ancient Elves appeared to have their own version of “Mak’gora” didn’t they, as we saw with Ly’leth, when she became Elisande’s advisor.

It must have been outlawed when Dath’Remar established leadership of the Highborne - unless it was something the Nightborne themselves invented, but I can’t see it.

1 Like
11

I have another question, regarding not Mak’gora, but his essence: a duel to the death.

While it’s safe to say Sylvanas and Jaina could hold on their own against any opponent, in a duel where they could deploy their arsenal: when was the last time a female was killed in a duel to the death with a male character ?

Mak’gora is Orc only tradition, but I think a duel to the death would be something more common in all other races of Azeroth.

Does anyone know of such events in WoW lore ?

Can the fight of Arthas and Uther, in Warcraft 3, be classified as a duel to the death ?

Thanks for your attention.
Cheers.

12

Yes, they fought each other til Death did them apart.

1 Like
13

Lothar vs Doomhammer. Death of Lothar.

Turalyon vs Doomhammer. Doomhammer defeated and captured.

Danath versus Killrog Deadeye was a true honor duel.

Oh, you also had Grommash vs Hurkan.

1 Like
14

I think you would need to come up with a compelling reason for Sylvanas to accept a challenge. Even beyond the fact Sylvanas does not seem to type to play fair, a mak’gora is a duel that heavily favours warrior types. One weapon, no armour puts anyone who uses multiple abilities and/or weapons at a distinct disadvantage in a fight with these rules. Not honest sure a bow is a useable weapon, after all a bow and an arrow could both be considered a weapon.

Given the innate connect of mak’gora to honour I also would not think any orc or like minded warrior spirit would see a 400+ pound orc vs a 100 pound elf in conditions that favour the orc to be a particularly honourable challenge.

Could be wrong but it’s just a thought.

2 Likes
15

Thanks for the replies Everyone.

3 Likes
16

This is actually scary-true.

I tried to make arguments in opposition, but… so far, Turalyon is the only one holding the wall. And he’s not even a Draenei.

3 Likes
17

Ah, that’s the thing, that isn’t how Mak’gora works. The ‘One Weapon, no armour, weapon can be blessed by a shaman’ thing is the set of rules -Cairne- chooses for his fight with Garrosh. Because that is how a Mak’gora works, the Challenging party has to set the rules. You’re absolutely allowed to wear armour, cast magic, wield as manyweapons as you like, -if- those are the terms the Challenger decrees. The Cairne vs Garrosh fight actually teaches us more about -Tauren- duelling customs, as it is Cairne’s culture that drives his choices, Garrosh puts in only one request, that it be to the Death. Thinking about the cultures the Tauren are based upon, Cairne’s rules make a lot of sense.

There has actually been a Mak’gora fought between a Blood Elf and an Orc before, but it was a male Blood Elf and a Female Orc, so the body mass difference would not have been as pronounced. Magic was also used by both parties, so is perfectly acceptable.

With Mak’gora, setting the terms is pretty much part of the ritual, as much as the fight itself, the duty is on the participants to agree terms that are fair to both parties, trying to weigh the odds in your favour, essentially ‘rigging’ the Mak’gora, is itself seen as extremely dishonourable, it seems that if the terms are blatantly biased, the challenged party can refuse until a fair set of rules is agreed upon.

4 Likes
18

Fair enough, I was not familiar with some of that information at least. That said if what you’re saying is correct why is it considered so widely that Thrall cheated in his Mak’Gora with Garrosh? My understanding was that it was because Garrosh turned up with just a weapon and more basic clothing, Thrall in plate armor, weapon and using spells. Another example is the Durotan vs Gul’dan in the movie, okay, it’s not really canon, but it’s also clear that the orcs considered Gul’dan to have cheated by using magic, isn’t that right? In both examples no rules were specified as far as I am aware so it seems to me that maybe it’s more likely that unless explicitly stated, the rules are as they were in the Cairne v Garrosh Mak’Gora.

In response the OP, would Baine not chose the same rules that Cairne did? It seems curious that he would say “anything goes” which is to be fair the only way Sylvanas is fighting at full power. Same goes for Saurfang, perhaps that’s what they would say, but then they are fighting magic using archer who, apparently, can fly. Sounds like suicide for conventional warrior types. But again, that’s just my perspective.

1 Like
19

Basically look up Mak’gora, on Wowpedia (Not Wowwiki, that’s fancanon) which has links, and you will see every Mak’gora ever fought, and by who, and what rules they chose to use…

I would have linked it, but Blizz is being silly with links and permissions…

That’s pretty much the definitive rules on Mak’gora, some have magic, some do not, some have armour, some do not.

Because people mistake what the rules of Mak’gora are, and think that the rules Cairne -chose- are the only rules, which they are not. They’re just the ones Cairne chose, and if you look back at the other Mak’gora described in game, there has never been one single set of rules, apart from Thrall vs Garrosh part 1 and 2, which was “If you’ve got it, use it”

Garrosh turned up in his usual rig, so did Thrall, The Movie version is absolutely Non Canon, and not how a Mak’gora is declared or fought. Magic is entirely allowed in a Mak’gora, otherwise the whole legal process is a farce slanted towards giving Warriors a free pass. Which might sound great for a Warrior Culture, but won’t sound so great when the leader is the one with the biggest muscles and not the biggest brain and they end up becoming outmanoeuvred and outthought by every opponent because they went with Brawn over Brains. If Mak’gora was solely about who was the best fighter and the strongest? Yeah, Orcish society would have imploded, and would be a bit of a laughing stock “Remember those guys who thought their political decisions should be made by who could punch the other the hardest?” “Oh yeah, those guys, they were funny, whatever happened to them?” “They were massively outthought by warrior cultures who understood the need for intellect as well as muscle, and because they had primed their society to work on duels as a way to advance, they were ill equipped to actually fight a war strategically, so yeah, they’re all dead…it was a dead end culture” Which is what Orcs are. Without the rest of the Horde to keep them in check, or an external impetus, Orcish society would implode if it carried on that way…

1 Like
20

Well, with respect both are made and maintained by fans which inherently means they are influenced by perspective. I don’t mean to totally discredit them but looking at events in game is usually the most absolute source material, then novels, then probably the movie. I know it’s non canon, but it’s impossible for me to totally disregard the specific aspect of the Mak’Gora when it does line up with other pieces in the lore. I am on the fence about the Thrall Garrosh thing myself but in the Legion quest Thrall mentions several times that Doomhammer stopped responding to him after he used it to kill Garrosh, at the very least that’s quite a coincidence.

I think what you say about it’s implications on warrior bias and how it could destroy orc culture are totally logical, but logic can only go so far in a fantasy world and since it feels to me that the writers are trying to shown Mak’Gora in a certain light I can’t really buy into it being exactly as you say.

To emphasis, I don’t think you are wrong on any particular point, but that’s not consistent with how I have interpreted what Mak’Gora are meant to represent.

1 Like
21

So not only does Baine not have to challenge Sylvanas to Mak’gora, but Sylvanas is under no obligation to say ‘Yes.’

Actually she is. The probelm with your analogy is that she is leading a faction FULL of orcs…if she refuses a Mok’gora she can at best expect to lose a lot of respect and at worse the Orcs decide she is not worthy to lead.

Respect of tradition means a lot to the Orcs and Mok’gora is one of the most sacred refusing it as a leader of the Horde, with many Orcs questioning her dishonourable tactics…i think this would probably be enough to break them.

4 Likes
22

Well, she actually isn’t. I mean you’re right, as I mentioned in my first post it would really annoy the Orcs if she said no, and cause bad blood there, but She’s not under an obligation to say yes. It would be disastrous politically, for certain, but even under the Orcs own laws there is no legal comeback to her for saying no. It just isn’t in the framework of their cultural law to have ever envisaged they would need to apply it to other races. The only other races that used Mak’gora also came from Draenor, that being Ogres, although their version is slightly different in that you can appoint a Champion to fight for you, instead of actually fighting yourself.

So yeah, absolutely it would be foolish to refuse, and wildly divisive to the Horde, but political issues aside, there would be zero comeback.

1 Like
23

And you thought this was a discussion about… orcs lawyering up to contest her claim to the Warchief position on legal grounds?

1 Like