Making Dungeons & Raids harder makes the game more fun

that’s probably what Blizzard is thinking

for me its not the case, it seems to me that when Blizzard sees things that are FINE that players never complained about means its need to be changed for the worse which they thing is good but it the opposite

for example
1-BFA dungeons when trash are literally harder than the boss, back in legion everything were fine, no one complained about such things but they felt the need to change things and ignoring what really need to be changed ???

2- everyone knows that TANKS are the least played role in the game and hard to find tank, what did Blizzard do ? they make Tanks even less fun to play in BFA dungeons with those trash mechanics and make some Affixes that affect the tanks solely, and on top of that they nerf Threat generation by a mile XDDD

and in Raids too, making raids hard is fine, but adding mechanics that require specific classes in order to beat the bosses like G’huun is utter nonsense in my opinion

they’re probably thinking like (hmm we need players to cooperate MORE in raids, they will feel they have accomplished something after beating boss) for me that’s no more than a torment and the torment ends after beating the boss regretting the time and effort u put to kill the boss with such idiotic mechanics

EDIT: I wanna talk about mythic + as well, they introduced mythic+ for the sake of E -sport alone, and now you see the spread of go go go mentality everywhere whether in a normal dungeon or not, its make me sick

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The issue is that the challenge increases mechanically up to a point, then only numerical increases apply.

Which in turn creates harder situations which are not related to player interaction with the game, but strictly class mechanics and numbers scaling alone.

That’s not fun and it can’t be fun because it’s not a challenge where the player feels in control of being able to overcome.

When there is a point where the solution for me to heal mythics more reliably is to reroll a mistweaver monk, something is wrong. And there lies the problem in my opinion.

I’d rather have more severe consequences for screwing up the mechanics instead of being unable to do tyrannical trio in waycrest manor because blizzard decided that priests are only allowed to hard cast to be effective and screw me over when it comes to the dark aura phase.

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Remember when heroics were not a faceroll and sometimes actually one shot tanks? Why can’t we have those back like in tbc or early cata. It was much more fun to play than with all these affixes you have nowadays

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Ok first of all, If you wanna at least look like you have any clue what you are talking about, post on your main. Secondly: I am not supporting your critisism of the content because the main premise is baseless.

Games are ment to be fun but without a challenge there is no content. If you got everything the game has to offer at the beginning of the game there would be no content left. Legion was all about skill expression and had a lot more depth to the difficulties that could be overcome. If you pulled 20 caster mobs in legion it was possible to survive without letting a single cast finish (mass stuns and belf). You could take 5 times your hp in dmg over a span of a few seconds and live simply because a healer could overcome that with timing and defensive cooldowns alone. If you do that in bfa you are just done for because the possibilty to outplay that doesnt exist anymore. So in terms of numbers legion was off the charts. And i think in a masspull with a lot of things to look out for legion dungeons were harder and much more unforgiving. But the cool solutions to the problems we were presented were endless. The problem with this is that bad players see all these cool things that can be done and instead of saying “wow thats really cool” they get all jealous and salty because they just wiped to that boss. Because they play for a different reason, not the challenge but the reward. So when bad players say content should be easier it is not because its overly difficult but because they want their reward faster.

Yes, Bfa dungeons have more unneccesary anoying mechanics than legion had, but classes simply dont have the same tool to deal with that anymore like they did in legion (loads of aoe stuns, silences and other forms of cc mobility and selfheal/defensives). Legion dungeons were wow on crack basicly where Pala-Heals could instant fullheal the entire group every second for the entire wing duration and dks gave 20% leech every minute which was equally broken.

Now we dont have those tools anymore, like holy burst or fistweaver, tanks beeing able to solo almost anything or ultra burst dps with trinkets and cooldown stacking combined with gigantic masspulls (2 warriors and a ww in maw at mdi) or just mobility and defensives to deal with things.

I would argue that a lot of the people who played tanks in legion did it as offspecc to get easier into content, which is fine but it also means they dont enjoy tanking for tanking alone, leading the group and ultimately deciding where to go and what to do, much less laid back then playing dps. If a dps makes a mistake he dies, if a tank makes a mistake everyone dies. Especially now that we have less classes with cr. Tanks were so op i legion that there were very few ways to die in max-reward level m+. Threat was irrelevant. Mechanically tanks have become far worse but its also much easier to tell a good tank from a bad on a base level, hence why less people are willing to tank. Because tanks had so much selfheal legion was all about not getting oneshot and thats it. Save to say it becomes a joke if things dont actually oneshot you. Even if it was op i would take legion tanking over bfa thats for sure.

Its the last boss on mythic only, and also only at the cutting edge level. Classstacking is very normal at that level, it doesnt make a difference if its the players doing it for min max or blizzard creating the demand. thats a very normal thing in high end raiding. Because of it nature the concept will never change, its stupid to argue over specifics like that.

Yes, thats the fullfilment of raiding. Maybe its not your kind of content.

Mythic + came before mdi, people wanting to level fast, not wanting to be held back by bad players, what a surprise. Go questing if you want to go at your own pace?

class diversity is a good thing imo, not every class should be the same . Trust me you are not the only class with that problem. Also disc is pretty solid in mythic+

[quote=“Leymaiden-azjolnerub, post:2, topic:18701”]
I’d rather have more severe consequences for screwing up the mechanics instead of being unable to do tyrannical trio in waycrest manor because blizzard decided that priests are only allowed to hard cast to be effective and screw me over when it comes to the dark aura phase.
[/quote] You can just use a ret pally to outheal that short phase where you cant move. About the other thing. that was basicly legion. Where the charge of Skovald would eventually oneshot you beyond prydaz so you needed a blink/dash to dodge it. Classes without that would have the same problem as you describe in bfa.

2 Likes

Why choose, we could just have both right? Hard heroic dungeons to slaughter bad players and mythic + for affixes lol.

I do not want to make this about me but are you willing to run those hard again dungeons with people that are not willing to learn how to cc or interrupt or not willing to listen to what you have to say at all?

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Personally I’d rather have Cata troll heroics, which I did as both healer and tank, than the mess of M+ time trial GOGOGO crap we have now.

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@Piscina all what you said in your reply is what benefit you only, but not necessarily the players base, what YOU see is is fine is not always fine to others, I don’t care if you are a mythic raider and have no problem with these things, just because you and the people around like it, that doesn’t mean things are fine to all other players

yes nothing is wrong with game being challenging, i dint say anything regarding that matter in my post neither i said make it easy

i really think you don’t quite understand since you are too proud of your mythic raiding skills.

I love raiding, you don’t get to decide whether it’s my type or not, i’m glad you like mechanics like that which are making raids way less fun at least for me, mechanics being in raid is good but not mechanics that require specific classes in order to complete the raid

this alone proves you are a corrupted player having that go go go mentality as i mention in my post, failing to see my point with that mentality

That’s a strawman, there’s a difference between being able to be at the very least respectable in most aspects and everyone being equal in all aspects. I don’t expect to outmatch Essence Font, I expect to not have to rely to DPS to heal something because I have no applicable tools other than an overnerfed Renew while moving.

Seriously, if a DPS can take over the healing of an encounter’s phase compared to a healer, then damn certainly something is wrong.

Class diversity is nice. Not when someone is left out completely unable of tackling a situation and someone else is allowed to chip in everything in at least some respectable form.

Even smaller things like Paralyse applying to everything while I’m left with Shackle Undead being usable in about 4 packs, literally, add up. Things like ring of peace and other utility which can’t be quantified numerically as well.

There can be distinct and quantifiable niches for each class even without screwing over some of them. That’s how Cataclysm worked and it worked fine.

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We still have troll heroics in bfa, they are still faceroll and hardly failable. M+ is an aditional option right ?

Blame the explosive success and - shudder - streaming friendly nature of Mythic+ timed arcade-game crap.

This is why dungeons are degenerating and be DAMN sure it’ll be even worse next expansion. Uuuh just to think what they’ll be like.

6 Likes

So do you think differences in disspells like not beeing able to cleanse poison/curses are ok in hat sense. At some point you also need dps to use their dmg reductions /immunities. Those are just reverse heals baiscly, because they dont get the dmg your would have had to heal.
On the other hand do you think Priest heal should be nerfed in raids, because they have the stamina buff (ultra important in progress, some of the best healing outpt and the most dmg of any healer as disc, manahym, devine hym (10% extra healing) and a totally overpowered 12 min cooldown (revival with a hot). They are so disgustingly strong in every aspect. of raid healing that you would never go without a priest even if their output was bad smh…

absolutely not, because those are 2 different kinds of heals. a ret pally had about 500k max healing for the entire group in a span of 2 globals, after that comes nothing. Its support healing for when sustained healing cant match the dps output anymore. You are not left out completely if someone else can just help you over the 30 second phase of 1 out of 5 bosses that you struggle with as a class.

No, you’re just grasping at straws to prove yourself right.

On the other hand do you think Priest heal should be nerfed in raids, because they have the stamina buff (ultra important in progress, some of the best healing outpt and the most dmg of any healer as disc, manahym, devine hym (10% extra healing) and a totally overpowered 12 min cooldown (revival with a hot). They are so disgustingly strong in every aspect. of raid healing that you would never go without a priest even if their output was bad smh…

Monks offer a unique debuff as well, priests don’t have exclusivity in that regard either.

And yes, I’d gladly take a hit to HW: Salvation if it meant I can be a proper healer again. I don’t actually enjoy having my power budget being pushed into 1 stroke miracles when I could have actual output which can result in those 1 stroke miracles not required as much in the first place.

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Oh right, because groups thinking “priests are terrible without a ret pally to cover their shortcomings” is totally not being left out. What a bunch of pure nonsense.

I guess that must be why all M+ would rather have a resto druid or a mistweaver monk instead of a priest of equivalent rio. Must be that class diversity being good for the game and the player.

And do they take as much of a hit when it comes to raid healing as I do when it comes to group healing? No, ofc they don’t. We couldn’t have them being left out of mythic raiding, but holy priests being locked a couple tiers of M+ below, that’s totally fine. (not that I’d be happy with anyone being left out of raiding, but according to your logic, it would be totally fine if they dominated something else instead)

Well, too bad monks dominate everything to begin with though, but whatever, you’re just arguing for argument’s sake upon a premise that diversity can only be 2 extremes which isn’t the case.

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i don’t like the attitude but i pretty much agree with everything you said.
Well done.

Exept there are 3 monk speccs that all offer the same thing even in other roles, monk tanks are the ultimate raid tank full stop, stagger is broken and ww arent bad either. They all offer the same unique buff but shadows suck and they can only provide 1 of the 4 unique raid utility spells that heal priests offer.

warcraftlogs .com/zone/statistics/19#metric=hps
warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/19#class=Healers
2nd and 3rd highest healing output and the #1 dmg output as disk.

community perception and bandwagoning is an entirely different thing. People take rouges over every other dps class even if they could do the dungeon without it because all the cutting edge runs have rouges and demon hunters and because of the unique utility rouges have. Dk tanks are taken over every other and druids reign supreme in healing.
Its community perception, not performance. We are talking about +10-12 keys here when people are already doing +21 keys INTIME. Are you trying to tell me that you are unable to heal +12 tyra wakerest sisters with bl? The problem you describe happens WAYYYYY further down the line. At which point you consider even healthstones, pots, and def cooldowns cheating. Its not, its beeing able to play your class.

not to say that Method Josh broke every healing record with his disc priest and is doing really high keys, certainly seems possible.

1 Like

I think the issue with trash is that it does not add to the dungeon or raid. Trash should be there, but making trash harder than the actual bosses is not making the dungeon more challenging.

A challenging dungeon to me is one where you have to figure out what mechanics to use, how to access the actual bosses, and maybe toss in a puzzle or something. Not just get into the dungeon and kill trash and kill more trash, then kill more trash then you hit the boss and oh a few changes in mechanics and kill and move on.

As for mythic, I agree the mentality has driven players to only worry about beating the clock. Heaven forbid if someone wants to hunt for mogs or do a quest while in a mythic, you will find yourself kicked asap.

I do agree that all specs should be fine to play any dungeon or raid. For the longest there was a healing problem, as there were essentially 0 healers queuing for Legion dungeons and raids, now we have a tank issue. Either Blizzard needs to scrap this queue system and adjust dungeons/raids to compensate for specs that people do not want to play or make the dungeons/raids better.

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Rogues are useful when you might wanna skip some parts during a M+. Wanna talk about the dog in FH or the skeletons in Underrot during teeming?? Oo
DK have grips useful with sanguine and casters, and rune power self healing.
Warlock again FH bridge skipping anyone? :stuck_out_tongue: I think yes, there are classes which are useful for the runs and the performances are still good.

Do I look like a discipline priest to you?

not to say that Method Josh broke every healing record with his disc priest and is doing really high keys, certainly seems possible.

For someone who preaches about “diversity”, you sure like to try to push the point that someone should always play the speccs they don’t like. Hypocrite much aren’t you?

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Yes and even though its doable without them even on a very high level because of things like invis potions, or alternative route poeple overvalue those speccs thinking a +10 is impossible without this skip or that specc. Its simply not true, there are much more fundamental issue issues like output, cooldown management and overall handling of mechanics and the amount of adds in each pull. Speccs become relevant pretty fast but they arent neccesary until a very high level.
Thats the flaw in community perception tahts amost impossible to fix imo.