There is a significant difference between DKs and DHs of races in the horde, and demons of a race not in the horde.
Also if the man’ari break away from the legion, and renounce their evil ways, they lose what makes them man’ari and would maintain their opposition to draenei for arbitrary reasons at that point: “The legion tricked us, it’s not our fault, but we still hate Velen even though we’re saying he was right and we were wrong” makes no sense to me.
In this respect it’s actually more plausible for a reformed man’ari that is trying to redeem themselves to join the alliance. Because once they disavow the one thing that splintered the Eredar (legion membership) they no longer have a logical basis to hate the draenei and it would make more sense to try and reconcile with them.
After all the draenei have been shown to work with the Kurenei and the Krokul, both forms of their people whom have been fel touched and don’t heed the Light, so so long as the renouncement of the legion is true, there’s no reason they’d maintain that barrier in my opinion.
It certainly makes more sense than them fostering a kinship with Orcs, whom yes, there is shared history of legion servitude, but you may as well argue that the trolls and night elves should be allied on the basis they both revere wild gods; you’re ignoring the several things that aren’t common between them to over emphasise the thing that is.
I get the additional of man’ari to horde would be more meaningful (new model) but that doesn’t mean it’s more plausible.
I also don’t believe the man’ari care they were tricked. KJ was a highly intelligent being, it would have been plain to him that Sargeras’ promise of glory and sharing enlightenment with new worlds was bunk the moment the Eredar were commissioned to raze their first world. Yet he served the legion faithfully for over ten thousand years.
You need to acknowledge how deep the fel corruption runs man’ari, I don’t think it’s possible for them to just decide to change their ways. They genuinely believe in Sargeras’ cause and still serve the legion even though both their eredar leaders whom signed them up are no longer in place.
Its more about Velen (and the Draenei) willing to forgive the Man’ari. He did forive Kil’Jaeden due to his last words but that doestn mean he has forgiven all Man’ari. Velen is a nice guy and all but he too holds grudges.
The Krokul resisted the fel. The Broken of Outland also had a massive problem in getting accepted by the Draenei. Also they cant even remotely be comared to the Man’ari.
Nelfs are Trolls. Just a different tribe of trolls. And we all know how the troll tribes all behave.
KJ literally stated he stuck with Sargeras because he didnt believe Sargeras could be stopped.
He expressed that towards the end of his life, that motivation is not what kept him going for 10,000 years.
The fact Velen escaped the Legion, and mortal thwarted the legion plots, would have been evidence to convince him to give up that line of thought if it were holding him to his station.
What kept KJ in the legion a majority of the time was it allowed him a vehicle to accrue power and exact vengeance on Velen. The idea he was an “unwilling servitor” is preposterous.
I do believe he came to regret his decision later on, but by then had become consumed by the sunk cost fallacy, but a majority of his tenure was absolutely him being on board with things. After all he was Sargeras’ majordormo and basically led the legion himself much of the time whilst Sargeras was otherwise encumbered. This doesn’t strike me as the position of someone who is only serving their lord because they believe they cannot be stopped; because at that point he’d have to be asking himself why HE didn’t stop doing it.
Sargeras’ actual direction of much the legion is not to be overstated. The crusade and “the vision” of the Legion is definitely down to him, as were initial recruitments, but the whole reason he went to the Eredar is he needed leaders and directors of his forces, individuals whom could go to worlds on his behest and do the work.
The Man’ari themselves have played a massive part in creating Sargeras’ vision. KJ was not some lapdog, he had a great deal of autonomy. The whole approach towards the events on Draenor, the transformation of Ner’zhul etc, these were completely his ideas and efforts and Sargeras was not involved.
Even if he had some fatalistic despair towards the odds of “beating Sargeras” his behaviour in these circumstances doesn’t convince me he was unwillingly going along with it, perhaps only at the end after the legion failing so many times (and him seeing that goodness and Velen’s way proved the more powerful)
being thwarted wasnt the problem. They didnt have a clear access point to Azeroth for Sargeras. Azeroth was filled to the brim with being blessed by the Titans. That they couldnt just roflstomp them was a given. If Sargeras however would have ever entered Azeroth this would have been meaningless and he could have just oneshot everyone.
I havent said he was unwilling so put words in my mouth. I said he didnt believe Sargeras could be stopped and as such sticked with him. Meaning he wanted the power yes, but he also believed that rejecting this power would just mean instant death and unlike Velen he didnt have the strength to believe in the light etc like he did and also KJ was severely jealous of Velens powers.
Because then Sargeras comes back due to Auto Ress and then instagibs him. Coupled with that he was in charge of the strongest army in the cosmos.
I mean the whole Legion plot was go to world. Say serve or die. Recruit or kill. The tricking KJ did with the Orcs (also because the Draenei were there) could also easily be done by any of the Nathrezim.
Sargeras “threatened” pretty much to replace him before the launch of ToS. Everyone was a lapdop to Sargeras. Did he share some points of his deluded vision? Certainly. All? Unlikely. Otherwise he would have gone to serve the Void rather than the Legion further down the line. He at least believed the Legion could stop the void.
He didnt believe they could be stopped due to Sargeras massive power (which is only beaten by Azeroth in this plane of existence) and the Legion roflstomping everything. He wasnt entirely unwilling because he was attracted to the power obviously. And they failed only against beings from Azeroth in the first place (which happened past recruitment).
The Man’ari were also well just Eredar led by their three man council. Archimonde, KJ and Velen. So if Velen splits off with some people its not surprising that some would stick with either Archimonde or KJ and believe their decision is the smarter one. Does that mean all Man’ari are not evil? No. Enough for an Allied race who isnt that big to begin with? Potentially.
I think this is an agree to disagree thing - and to be clear I was not saying that you specifically said that KJ was an unwilling servitor (I never said as such) I said merely the idea he was unwilling itself is preposterous which is possible conclusion if one entertains the idea that he stuck with the legion out of fear (but by not means the only conclusion, as you have raised and argued quite well).
In this however I refer back to my original point - if what it requires to make man’ari playable is to make them renounce their evil ways and renounce the legion, in my opinion, you are diluting what it is that makes them what they are, in order to make them accessible.
it is akin to where people have argued for helf inclusion on the basis of them possibly having to escaped to some remote island, and having them (to distinguish them from belf) embraced druidic ways complete with woad facepaints and shamanism etc. At that point i’d argue it’s not even really helf you’re asking for - because the resultant race doesn’t resemble helf as we know them culturally or thematically, there’s just a superficial resemblance.
So it goes for man’ari in my mind. Are they really man’ari if they’re unaffiliated with the legion, oppose the legion, seek alliances with other mortal races and generally turn their back on their domineering way? At that point i’d argue they’re not any more. You may as well give them a new Eredar identity at that point rather than suggest they are man’ari (with whom they would share little common features beyond looking like them).
Well neither Nightborne had many reasons to join the horde… infact they tried to join the alliance but got rejected by Tyrande. (and she was very hard on them) Literally following the Nightborne recruitement questline was a whole cringe of… “We want to join the alliance but they dont want us so we will join you” kinda thing.
Same could be said from VE or HE. Both with incredibly low numbers magically are around to fill Stormwind?
A redemption story is enough to tie them to a faction… pretty much with what happened with the Forsaken.
Not exactly. Wasnt that much of a redemption for the forsaken. They were literally mind controlled by Arthas until he was weakened enough due to Illidan being busy with destroying Ner’zhul. And after they were free they were rejected by the Alliance (which also wanted to conquer their land) and as such went to the Horde because they were of free will and the horde at that point in time wasnt like the Alliance but merely a band of races fighting for survival. And the orcs knew what it means to do stuff against their will given their history with Manni.
I understand that lorewise they could easily workout with Alliance too and dont get me wrong… but gameplay wise i don’t think that Giving 2 Draeneish Allied Races to the alliance is a nice thing to do. I mean i wouden’t be happy if blizz one day would come here and say Hey Horde! you get another Troll/Tauren allied race.
Another point about AR was to allow more freedom in races… and so far we got only a swiceroo with BE & NE (if you wanna consider them equal).
And you know what happened with BE model in alliance? it boomed becouse it was exactly what they wanted. With the NE model? not so much. (probably becouse they literally have the worst customization in all wow races).
And just immagine going in a BG and seeing Red “draenei” Fighting Blue Draenei… wouden’t that be a nice sight to see it kinda brings back the old times.
And lorewise… well like you said Velen “forgived” KJ but nobody said that either both the Lightforged or Velen forgived the man’ari. And dont forget KJ & Velen were super bros.
And with all the Holy crusade going on etc etc wouden’t surprise me if the Lightforged straightfully disliked the idea that some “Fel infused draenei” would join the alliance… either if they did good or not.