Here i am , trying to enjoy the MDI (mythic dungeon invitational), and i’ve already watched like 5 or 6 dungeons, and then i started to realise that EVERY single team is running literally the same composition. Now, dont get me wrong, i understand that there are bound to be classes better than others during the given patch, but the fact that in these 5 matches i watched, people picked only 4 classes (Prot warrior,Resto druid, 2x rogue and a WW monk) NO MATTER of the affixes or circumstances , indicates that something is not allright. Idk, maybe its just me that finds this unpleasant to watch.
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Well, we’ve been talking about this since day one of this Xpac, but rather than try and balance classes, blizz keep buffing those already OP ones and adds content that favors them largly, so much that people got tired of giving feedback, and either stopped playing or mained those FOTM classes, deserting all the other classes.
If those 2 rogues in every team like you said, at the MDI, don’t ring the bells at blizz wow HQ, then this is really a hopeless case.
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I just don’t think it’s feasible to balance the game around competitive dungeons. Considering what they are, the best comps are always going to be found and chosen.
And besides, not every spec is going to be viable in a high octane dungeon environment, it’s impossible without making massive changes.
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Is not that hard either. Right now everyone is running the same comp based on a mix of utility and dmg. Rogues are off the scale now because huge aoe + shroud for skip. It’s too much.
Either nerf the utiliy or nerf the dmg, a single class can’t have both.
Done that, there will be more mix.
Not every spec is ok, not every class is wrong at every level.
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First off MDI is not “high” keys for the people playing and is not representative of the top key pushing groups.
If one class just provides 1-2% more dps, it will be represented in 99% of the MDI keys, no matter it’s utility(outside of shroud).
They are running +18 keys in 15 mins, they don’t need any utility to get faster, just more DPS to nuke down insanely big pulls.
So, do you balance classes around MDI or around high level keys (23+) cause those two require completely different sets of utility/dps.
An UH DK is great for specific MDI keys (UR e.g.) while not providing any utility just because they have insane ramp up dps every 6(?) mins. which isn’t as relevant in actual high keys.
Even if they remove shroud, they would probably play the same comps because as i said before, it’s all about DPS and pulling 1 more pack than your opponent.
If they nerf rogues DPS you will probably see 1 max. and if they nerf their DPS to a point where a DH/WW/UH DK or a range will outperform them in big pulls by a big margin, they will just not bring rogues anymore.
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Neither of those scenarios are really representative of what normal players do but if i have to choose, i’d say balance around mdi which at least as some resemblance of rules.
Balancing around mega high keys does not make sense because at that level is more bringing something to counter something rather than a balance.
Maybe but surely with a nerf you’ll open up at least 1 slot for something else.
Don’t forget that MDI has a reasonable amount of followers, and what they do will be emulated by fotm players, which are still part of the playerbase.
I do really think this is a rule that should be valid in general, you should have big numbers or great utility, not both. Something in the line of “do i bring a rogue for the skip or do i bring something else for extra dps instead of the skip?”
Right now the sensation is utility->numbers.
A possible solution could be more utility from the professions. Decent utility, not like the crappy br engineering got.
Remember, MDI is all about during keys fast. Not about pushing keys. If you actully look at raider.io leaderboard you’ll see a bit more varied composition on the top teams.
On the leaderboard, yes, there are many rogues, you also see quite a few Shamans, mages, DH and WW, and even the odd Paladin, Lock, druid and priest. The only DPS classes that aren’t really there in the top pushing teams seems to be Warrior and DK.
In terms of healing, yes, seems shamans aren’t great for high end pushing. And DK and DH tanks are pushed aside for this as well.
What you need to do a key quick, is not the same you need for pushing necesarily. So yes, some classes shine brighter in certain scenarios
Imo, it’s far better to balance around high end keys rather than fast keys. The utility used for the high end grps is still valid for the weaker grps.
OP is complaining about the MDI meta, not what the average joe is doing.
When i play on my alt and even if i push on my main, my groups don’t always consist of the average meta, outside of me being a rogue, and i still play assassin for M+, so i don’t really know what you want.
You say you want more variety, but i see a decent amount of variety in low M+ keys(+10-+15).
For DDs: mages, ele, dh, WW monk, spriest, rogues, BM hunter, etc
For tanks: basically everything is viable, but being a Warri/BDK/Monk will bring you the best dps/utility/survivability
For healers: basically everything is viable, but being a druid/mw monk will bring you the best dps/utility/hps
Not for MDI…
Outlaw is brought by everyone, because they can pull so much DPS. Same goes for the odd UH DK. They’re just there for the insane pulls you can make.
The engineering BR is perfectly viable and balanced accordingly and it’s banned for MDI.
That and the popularity of prot warrior is the reason why everyone runs a resto druid.
You can see in the time trials that the keys that were tanked by BDKs or where a UH DK/Warlock was a dd they didn’t run a resto druid.
So the problem is the playerbase and not the balance for the MDI.
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You’re avoiding the subject and keep playing around it smh.
Tahen is saying that if the class is able to do so much damage like outlaw rogues, then they shouldn’t have that much of a utility with it, especially when other classes are designed around that same principle of “being able to do something and sucking at the other” but then there is rogues and Dhs just chilling there with almost everything, which create the imbalance and isolate the other classes/specs.
Let’s say this is the traits needed from classes in M+ : Single target damage, cleave/aoe damage, defensive/immunity abilities, offheals/dispells, cc/displacement/perma slow abilities, and general utilities.
In a balanced environement, a player making a group should think about the dungeon he’s about to do, the affixes that week, what is needed for it, and recruit using traits from above, most classes have 3 of those traits max in a spec, to balance stuff out.
But Rogues and DHs have almost all those traits and are the best at them for absolutely no reason, if you compare a warrior and a rogue , it’s a complete joke, warriors have nothing but aoe damage, and rogues are better than them for it, i mean come on. rogues and dhs even outclass paladins on imunities and soaks.
People keep bringing that argument that there will always be better specs/classes, it’s true, but you can’t apply it here, cause the imbalance isn’t 2-10% better, it’s up to 50% sometimes, people wouldn’t stay for hours waiting for their rogues friend to log or to find a pug rogue because of 10%, they’ll take the next good class, but they’ll do it for 50%, and that’s what’s happening.
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It is not entertaining cause the meta everyone takes - but it is how they execute their tactics.
I saw that many things I never imagined they’re possible (#zonepull).
Means: for the hour I watched. I’m not able to follow streams for longer cause I want to play on my own then.
Yeah no shi t, the game should be balanced around Mythic raiding, not 5 man content.
Rogues are fine qq
The issue with balancing around raiding is the variety of the boss mechanics within a raid and from tier to tier.
Think at bod, if the game was balanced around it, to compensate the heavy movement of some fight melee should be able to make colossal numbers, ending up crushing the more static fights like blockade.
Unless you’re pushing 20+, everything is viable everywhere, yet people are going for the best comp because it’s easier. Everyone who can takes the path with less resistance.
This is a big issue because the less balance there is between classes, the more the average joe will tend to reroll to fotm classes to get better chances of grouping.
Legion was swamped with DH and now they are a rare sight. Guardian and feral druid are almost non existent, I can’t recall the last resto shaman i’ve seen in a m+
And the more those event showcase the same comp for everyone, the more people will be convinced that is the way to go.
I don’t know how you can call balanced a brez that is melee range only, with cast timer, shared cd and not even a 100% success rate.
It’s soo bad that even if i have it, i’ve used it twice since it was released. Twice.
No the problem is the class balance. MDI is just a showcase of how bad is it and will influence the more causal playerbase, the ones that doesn’t play 6+hrs a day and have 4 different geared toon for every occasion.
It’s like this for every game. I can speak for my experience: i also play world of tanks and every time WG makes a tournament, two weeks later everyone is playing the same tanks the teams played.
But the difference is like 1%…
Furthermore classes like UH DK that are brought to every MDI will barely see play in a PUG environment(at least if you’re bellow 20s) cause it requires insanely coordinated big pulls.
Just because those comps work in the MDI setting, where everyone is bringing their A game and all 5 coordinate perfectly, doesn’t mean it’s suited for PUGs or casuals pushing 18s.
Yes, the classes you named 100% need attention, but those are FAR away from just being 1% worse than Warri/DK/Monk or RDruid/MW Monk, while all DDs are within 5-10% of each other, which is nearly as perfect as it can get and all of them are viable for +10s - +15s.
It has a 100% success rate, if it fails the person is still getting ressed just with 1hp, which is enough to do skips.
I use it on the regular, sometimes we don’t have a CR, sometimes the druid is getting 1shot, sometimes the druid has to heal and it’s better for me to drop some DPS.
It’s not meant to replace CRs but to help smooth out situations where you don’t have one.
I use it on the regular, probably every other key.
If the average joe gets influenced by the MDI, a basically completely separate format from normal M+s, thats on him.
You can’t just zerg everything down in a PUG(or, if you’re “pushing” 15s), you need way more utility, be it purges, despells, darkness, etc. because DPS isn’t what you’re lacking.
It’s not, otherwise we would have seen different comps. 1% is something a player could compensate with better class knowledge and skill, if they all went for those comps it’s because they’re miles ahead of everything else.
Sure but DK are viable as tanks, so people are still rolling them.
Of course their not but do you really think the average joe will care? They will be like “look at those rogue numbers, i want one too”.
I can name more classes. When did you last see a survival hunter, an enha shaman or a frost dk or a fire mage in a m+?
Not all dd are within 5-10% of each other and if you are on the low end of the damage meter unless you have a good utility to bring, you’re likely the last pick or on the bench.
No it’s on blizz.
Because right now MDI is zerging everything down with rogues + rdudu and those two classes alone are 75% of the utility you need in a m+, shroud for skip + brez.
It’s not balanced at all.
Add pvp talents to pve.
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Pretty much all of them in the last few weeks, outside of survival hunter (Just play a melee class if you want to play melee).
And i can repeat myself: Thats not a balancing or MDI problem, but a playerbase problem.
Noone started requiring UH DKs after the MDI in season 1 when Method pulled half of motherlode and he pulled 200-300k dps because everyone knew that noone outside of the top 0.1% can pull that off.
Yes, not enough classes have a CR, otherwise we would see a lot more MW monks, indeed. (And therefore less WW monks)
But because prot warri is so popular atm (And all other CR classes outside of RDruid are bad), RDruid is the only viable healer.
But that is because it’s a race for seconds, where just 1k more DPS overall can mean a win or loss, so noone cares for BDK utility.
And what has that to do with my point? My point was that it’s ok to have a fixed meta for the top 0.1% because those players can abuse things that the normal player can’t. That results in a meta that is not realistic for pugging or pushing.
Furthermore i haven’t seen a lot of BDKs in weeks, because prot warrior is so overrepresented and needs a slight nerf(Or the other tanks a slight buff to DPS).
Wow, never expected so many opinions. Thanks for that. From what I see, I agree with the opinion that, it is okay to have a stable meta for the MDI, because after all most of us are not doing 20+ keys as fast as humanly possible. However that doesnt change the fact that every team in the MDI running the exact same comp, regardless of the affixes and dungeons is making the tournament extremely dull and unappealing to a newcomer to the game, especially if that said newcomer has picked or is trying to pick a class different from the FOUR classes present in MDI.
Melee crushing 1 encounter would be better than ranged crushing literally all of them
Exactly my point. Now that the top players are running prot, everyone is running prot and bdk which are absolutely viable for any key, are disappearing.
You cannot have a fixed meta for the 0,1% and expect that it won’t affect the rest of the playerbase because it doesn’t work like that. Casual will always try to emulate the pros, either because they want to be pro or because they know that copying the pro will make things easier.
Half of the game streaming business is based on that, players watching what better players do to learn and improve (the other half is hot chicks pretending to play in lingerie)