MM pets solution - either a traditional pet summoned OR auto-applied "spotting eagle" mechanic (but the eagle is replaced by a tamed pet of choice)

Classes Hunter
1

You don’t think it can get any worse … until it gets worse. Slowly and steadily into the hell.

TLDR:
- keep traditional pets just as they are
- just re-design/upgrade the “Lone Wolf mode” into the “Spotting <your-tamed-pet> mode” (i.e. all the quality-of-life mechanics, but represented by our pets)

How can a bluepost start with these sentences and then propose to completely remove pets as a solution?
“Hunters are in large part defined by their pets and their greater relationship with the natural world of Azeroth and beyond.”
“Why should a Hunter be frustrated to pull out their pet?”
Sick minds :sweat:

So what we have had:

  • the “original” MM hunter identity, preferring the fantasy of being accompanied by a loyal companion (which is not the same as BM by any means!)
  • the “new” MM hunter identity, preferring the fantasy of a lone wolf

What we/Blizzard should have done:

  • accept that both groups of players exist and look for solutions and options to make both groups viable and happy (aka INTRODUCE OPTIONS)
  • with “pet-less playstyle” already being superior in terms of balancing/throughput (at least in PvE), the only thing remaining was to ensure the “pet playstyle” is viable as well (and there were straightforward ways!), plus removing the clunkiness of having to summon a pet to cast some abilities (here we were on the right track already with Intimidation, it would be enough to expand on this!)

What Blizzard did instead:

  • REMOVED THE OPTION to have pets completely, which, as always, helps n-o-o-n-e

Sure, the “spotting eagle” approach is the mechanical way to go in terms of removing the clunkiness from “pet-less playstyle” … BUT WHY is it connected to a complete removal of traditional pets???

Where is some sense of player choice, of fantasy, of roleplay, of emotional connection to the pets, which we have had around for decades? :angry:

Who does benefit from being COMPLETELY UNABLE to summon a pet, even if it’s suboptimal? NO ONE.

Who does benefit from some generic forced eagle fantasy?
People who want to play with their tamed pets? No. People that want to play with no pets at all? No.

What is even the “hunter class” fantasy now? Ranged sharpshooters? Not anymore. Pet companions? Not anymore. There’s nothing cohesive about the Hunter class anymore.

The sensible way forward:

  • keep traditional pets as they are - if you summon one, everything works as so far - meant for world content, for fantasy, for RP - NO NEED TO TOUCH THIS AT ALL
  • when you have no pet summoned, the new “spotting eagle” approach automatically applies (with access to pet abilities etc.) - so basically re-invented Lone Wolf
  • but, the “spotting eagle” approach is actually represented by your tamed pets (not some generic&forced eagle), to at least preserve the basic loop of choosing&taming a pet and creating a bond to it, on the most basic level

I could hardly imagine anything more paradoxical and ironic than first saying
“We are interested in continuing to flesh out Marksmanship’s Eagle as a true pet and partner for you …”,
i.e. a pet is part of MM hunter identity, and then proceeding to remove pets from MM hunters completely :exploding_head:

Now no single MM hunter can have a pet (of their choice), yet at the same time every MM hunter has to have a pet (which they can’t choose) as a core mechanic. Blizzard is achieving “impossible” here :clown_face:

Please, if anyone resonates with the opinion that the “spotting eagle” approach is mechanically the way to go, but there’s no reason to tie it with the complete removal of traditional pets and no reason to limit it to eagle visuals only, repost this to US forums as well. Many thanks :pray:

PS: Don’t remove wind arrows, one of the few interesting visuals!

4 Likes
2

No wind arrows, no Rapid Fire Barrage and a reskinned Lone Wolf disguised as a renamed Sentinel Owl!
Markmans could just be reworked as a number/combat logg class; remove the few visuals left and just take off chunks of their targets health depending on what spell number they press.

1 Like
3

I don’t think there was/is as much freedom as you make it sound like in terms of pet selection. Some pets are more viable than others, for example in PvP it is optimal to have an undead raptor for most content, and a mortal coil pet in general, limiting your freedom of choice.

An ugly raptor or hippo being replaced by an eagle isn’t a big deal to me and you still have two specs where you can enjoy your pet class fantasy.

I think Blizzard will wait and see if this new Spotted eagle playstyle sits well with the playerbase and then allow us to swap the eagle for other options.

Personally really excited about this change though.

4

Well not all people care about viable, some just make it work… I personally wouldn’t use a ud raptor with my NE hunter because I rather make the game a bit harder but use my other pets. And if you really don’t care if it’s an eagle or a raptor, well why even endorse the change? Don’t want to call it selfish but it’s borderline. No offense!

Personally I would like a change which benefits both sides… even tho I haven’t seen any good argument other than “it gives me more damage so/and I don’t care about my pet”. And the “Sharpshooter” fantasy isn’t this… and if the definition of sharpshooter is “do big damage from range” why would a pet ruin it? And allow me to judge, using a gun or crossbow, which both barely have no animation to speak off, where is the fun? That’s almost exactly what I was joking about… you press button and then you see a number over your targets head and repeat until it’s health = 0.

1 Like
5

I like it not being any real pet honestly, though the pets I like are mostly the ones with least useful abilities.

The pet ai is just clunky and you get error messages all the time because the pet is CCed or rooted. And it keeps you in combat, even if the pet isn’t actually fighting anyone.

None taken, I understand your point of view. With the Lone Wolf talent, you could opt if you want a pet or not, though only one choice was optimal and you sacrificed a lot of utility (pet sac, mortal wounds, pet rootbreaker etc.). Now the choice will be taken from you for MM, and you will lose a dmg sponge (which is the only thing I personally like about pets) for world quests.

To rephrase what I said, I personally am looking forward to the new playstyle, because it seems it is MM without an actual pet, but with all the benefits of having one (the eagle is just a visual). But I understand that some people dislike the changes…we will have to wait and see how it works out and if this is the class fantasy Blizzard have in mind for MM.

It is like with Surv, some people love it, some hate it and want the trap version back.

Yea the visuals of Hunter abilities are often dull (wind arrow is nice though). I guess there is only so much effects you can add to fast flying projectiles.

6

This will never happen, because the new mechanic of the spec is Spotter’s mark which is themed after the eagle.

Every attempt of “2 playstyles in 1 spec” has failed so far - cat/bear feral druid, gladiator stance prot, demon form lock, etc. Blizz are moving away from this kind of design because it’s hard to balance. They are not going to support and balance eagle MM vs pet MM. If they wanted this, they’d stick with the current lone wolf.

Oh, and the wind arrows are a horrible talent - completely useless. It’s a miracle how they survived for so long.

7

There’s no need for it to be themed after the eagle. Any tamed pet could show up to perform the animation&ability, just as for Intimidation. The “tech” is already in place.

Let’s not pretend they have been trying to balance 2 playstyles. The Lone Wolf has just been the only way to go (in PvE) for years - which sucked. There has been no effort to make playing with pet equally viable in terms of throughput. But at least the option remained to run around the world with a pet, even if suboptimal, for the fantasy of it. Not everyone is min/maxing the game. Actually, majority of the people isn’t. They just need the “fantasy” options.

You’re cleary looking at the game purely from the perspective of mechanics/efficiency, ignoring the fantasy/immersion aspect. But there’s both. And both important (even if not for you personally). For fantasy, the wind arrows have been a rare exception to otherwise pretty boring Hunter ability visuals.

As I already said. Nothing about the “spotting eagle” mechanic implies/forces the complete removal of traditional pets. These are disconnected matters. The easiest thing is to upgrade Lone Wolf to this “Spotting Eagle” to make it even more optimal (for MM specialization), but not touch the traditional pets (for Hunter class). It would actually be even less work and make more people happy.

This is “Hunter” class. Not “Ranger” class (like it or not). It makes absolute sense for all Hunters to be “fully” accompanied by their companions (of their choosing). The pets should be the common denominator for Hunters on the class level.

And if there really needs to be a specialization that doesn’t use pets - which would be better served by a new class/spec - then the act of “specializing” into it should mean that you are becoming more efficient without a pet. It shouldn’t mean that you completely loose access to something that has forever been the core of the class.

It’s already enough of a sacrifice that the “pet playstyle” isn’t the optimal one, since this has been the original theme (for all Hunter specs). We forgot that there were times that Lone Wolf wasn’t even a thing. Now we have to beg to even keep pets in game on the “cosmetic” level, having already lost any hope that it could ever be viable again. Just crazy.

1 Like
8

I see your point.

The game is balanced around performance though, not around fantasy, for better or worse, and to Blizzard the hunter-pet bond fantasy is well-represented by BM/SV already, while the “lone ranger” fantasy is ill-represented by the Lone Wolf talent’s suboptimal implementation (namely losing a lot of utility by taking it). In PVE the petless version was used (but clunky for bloodlust) and in PVP the opposite - lone wolf was almost never taken, or just for the opener and then you call the pet for the utility.

So they had 2 choices - balance petless vs “with pet” MM for PVE/PVP, or just double-down on the petless version and hard-commit to it. In design (game, software, but also in general) committing to one solution and going all-in is generally considered better than going for middle-ground solution, because trying to satisfy everybody usually makes a product “mid” at best - a jack of all trades. The most successful products are usually those that are the best in one aspect.

So if I were in their shoes, pragmatically I’d choose the same. You already have 2 specs that go all in on the pet fantasy, why not make the third all-in on the petless fantasy. It’s a no-brainer from design perspective.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, because this is subjective, I’m saying it makes sense from the developers’ perspective and I can see why they’re doing it. They must be disruptive sometimes and take risks, or the game will never truly progress.

1 Like
9

You know ranger are kinda a sub version of Hunter (similar to simple archer and sniper)

The whole hunter have a pet is a Blizzard thing, outside you dint see that.
Even ff14 have with their range class no pets

Hunters didn’t necessarily need a pet and did you read the name and descriptions of yne Mm
Its marksmen who gigh primarily with threi range weapons, NOT the pet.
And we see many hunters who without one

10

The problem was lust tbh. And the whole class(es) concept. Lone is already more effective, they could just enhance it, and leave the pet be. For the “filthy casuals”, who buy the vast majority of tokens and shop stuff btw. For the good we get…

You don’t need balance, eagle can be the competitive perk, and pet the casual one. It’s a matter of philosophy, not reality. They don’t have to change things, they choose to, because it’s easier. Just don’t invite pet MM to your key/raid, it’s the case already. Blizzard can’t pretend they want to avoid people being benched when they can’t balance the game and know most players are put aside because they don’t play the FOTM class/spec. It’s literally the whole game motto for 10 years.

Something people tend ot forget, is that Blizzard has always forced players into things they worked on. For some devs it might be a matter of pride or whatever, but in fact it’s because things Blizz pays for must be seen, because the reports must underline how popular and cost effective any change is.

11

THANK PET GODs THIS HAPPENED! :pray: :bow_and_arrow:
For once, brain won, options for players won over toxic denial of choice! The number of forced choices bending Hunter identity since the beginning has been too large already.

Good job to all fighting for this :smiling_face: Enjoy your time with your beloved pets :four_leaf_clover:

Love you, Sunstrike! :cat: :orange_heart:

1 Like