MMR : Is still good for the game?

PVP Arenas
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Greeting forums

More i think about it.
More i convince myself it’s not great.

Because why more we chains win with someone, more our MMR goes up highter than our Current Rating (CR )

So it push you to face more quickly opponent of your level than your current level with the character.

The main issue when i rethink about it is MMR is that you are not rewarded for getting more MMR than getting Current Rating (CR).
When i mean that is with CR you can upgrade your gear as a progression.

But i see now the MMR as a issue since i do RBG and when i rethink it applies to arena to, the fact that you are geared like a 1600 but you will face people geared as 1800.

Why not simply delete the MMR systems and climb the ladder like a real ladder and not like a ladder elevator ?

I’m open minded, please change my mind that there is a good reason MMR is good, i fail to see it.

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Because MMR allows you to play with people above or below your own rating and you’ll still benefit. It’ll adjust you to face equally skilled opponents more quickly.

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Why not just take the middle of the 2 player CR and then be done with it ?

I don’t understand like if you win a game you win 14 cr and the MMR gain up to 32 ?

if that just between the 2 player the MMR would just goes up by 14 instead of 32.

So why setting a MMR systems instead of using the current rating to set the range of research ?

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Because if you do that, then player 1 would benefit and player 2 would not.

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The reason they brought in MMR is related to the core philosophy of rating systems.

To start with, we all have a theoretical “true rating” in every competition imaginable. What rating systems does, is try to get participants to their “true rating” in various ways. Because even an absolutely new person that has never played the game before, doesn’t necessarily have a skill level of 0 rating. They might be closer to 1300. Or 2000. And so on.

So what the separated MMR does, and why Blizzard said they brought it in, is to make the better players reach their rating faster than they did in TBC when the CR was the MMR and you couldn’t win more than the opponents lost, etc.

Which it does, but it’s also inherently more volatile because of that, when compared to the Elo system which they based the TBC rating system on. The current system isn’t based on Elo, it’s much closer to the Glicko RD rating system along with Blizzard’s own tweaks here and there.

So that’s why the game has a separated MMR from the CR, and how points won/lost is relative to your MMR and its volatility.

Personally I prefer the Elo system they used back in TBC though.

Just a side note
It’s easier to wintrade in the game’s current version than it was back in TBC. TBC had a problem with feeding wins though, which is slightly different and was because of the small matchmaking pools in some of the battlegroups.

Wintrading as it works now is when two teams, usually on really high MMR, play during hours of the day when there’s the fewest amount of players queuing for arenas near their MMR. This makes it so they get matched up with each other over and over again.
So what they then do is giving each other wins in a controlled fashion, in a way so that both of the teams ends up with more rating than they started with before those games.

This is only possible because of the way the MMR works and how you can win more points than the opponents lost, and vice versa. They’re literally “creating” new rating points out of nowhere when they do that.

Which isn’t possible in TBC, when you could only win what the opponents lost and vice versa. So you could keep trading wins to each other, but one team would always end up with more while the other team would end up with less, compared to when they started doing it. Since they’d just be passing the points that already exists between each other.
In other words, they’d “feed” one team.

It’s still possible to feed in the current rating system, but it’s less efficient than wintrading. With a large matchmaking pool as we have now, it’s also much harder to feed unless both teams are already at a high MMR.

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The think i see a problem with mmr is like i leveled alt shaman, i geared it by playing pvp arenas i gto like 1,1k rating on it and around 1k mmr wining a game give me around +9 rating and losing is like -15 like wtf ?

when i was paing main on that raing i was geting like +40 pre win , its like geting higher on my alt is so supper harder then on main i have to got like 70%+ win rate to geat 1,4k rat on my alt wast is kinda insane

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Obviously you lose more rating than you gain if your MMR is below your CR, I don’t see your point? The way it works is that you gain way more MMR than CR if you win a few games in a row and the other way around. If your MMR and CR are about equal and you win 5 games in a row, you won’t even lose any CR on your next loss because your MMR is so far ahead already.

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y i know that my problem is how slow mmr grow even on that low rating as 1,1. i ddint realy get what all fuss was all about in my guild how hard is to get 1,4 or 1,6 untyl i made alt and after 5 wins 4 lost games i get on it from 1094 to 1101, it woud be ok result on 1,8k or 2k but on 1,1k rating fore real?

shure i get goal behind mmr but simple it growth on low levels is just to slow

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You are rewarded if your MMR goes a lot higher than your CR. You lose no rating for losing and win tons of rating if you win.

How can you complain about this?

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He’s complaining about the rate mmr goes up in arenas and he’s right, atm the median rating seems way too low and this brings better players down to a lower elo, boosting absolutely ruins it also.
Facing 1200 3v3 rated players on 2100+ rated bg mmr constantly if that says something.

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that’s not a thing, Elo is just a rating system named after its creator. Rating is rating, Elo is just a name. And it’s not even the rating system they use in the game right now.

He’s not right, it’s a consequence of quicker damage pace and larger gear differences.

So the reason it’s “too slow” and why the average rating feels so low, is because more people are losing in their placement games. Placement games are when the MMR is the most volatile (by design), and is intended to land at a point where it will start to stabilize more, which can vary from below 1k to even 2k if you don’t carry the MMR from last season with you.

In other words, MMR is just representative of where his “chance to win” is close to even right now. And it just so happens to be at that low rating, because of the gameplay design and gearing design, and his ability to play in it.

MMR is different in different ladders, because they’re their own isolated ratings. You don’t carry your MMR in RBGs to other ladders, because that’d be incredibly stupid for all of the reasons mentioned already in this thread.

The fundamental of rating is that it’s supposed to represent your ability to play.

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Its widely used in competitive games like basketball, tennis, cs:go, ow etc and it can be used in wow as well as the rating system works like that except for the event of draw.
Edit: sorry, now I get why you said it, nevermind, I used it wrong and you pointed it out. Thanks.

We don’t surely know what is the reason why mmr gains are slower than they used to be and while your idea fits well, there must be some manipulation behind it as I don’t think previously 2k+ players should be hardstuck around 1500 now only because of a game pace change.

It was just an example, I used it because I’ve been actively checking my enemies after a game and the results are horrifying in my opinion.
The difference between 1200 and 2100 mmr in any bracket is huge. Few hundred sr would be okay, but almost 1k is way too much.

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What are you even talking about?

Just fyi, almost all of those games you mentioned use either the Glicko rating system or the Glicko-2 rating system (basically just an improvement in functionality). I don’t know what a few of them uses, but CS:GO 100% uses GLICKO.

Elo is just a name after its creator. Árpád Élő was his name, if you need specifics.

There are several rating systems in the world. Each with their own name. To call them all “elo” is extremely ignorant.

Yes, we do. Rating systems are mathematical proofs, some being under public domain so you can check it out yourself. http://www.glicko.net/glicko.html

Feel free to read the documentation and the math behind it yourself.

It really isn’t. You can be great at playing one specific comp (cough RMP players cough), yet suck in 2s or RBGs, and vice versa. If your ability is high, then the purpose of the MMR volatility is to get your rating to where your “true rating” is at faster. Meaning they won’t be at that low rating for long in such a case.

If you’re unable to destabilize the MMR, then that’s when it’ll take longer and feel more like a slow struggle. Which is how it should be, since that’s indicative of a slow increase in the ability to play, i.e. you learn as you play more which takes a long time as well.

PS:
The Elo rating system is what they used as the basis for TBC’s rating system, which they replaced with the Glicko implementation when WotLK arrived (which Blizzard tweaked to fit WoW, and has continued adjusting ever since).

Microsoft got a patent for their own rating system that they use for Xbox games as well, just sayin’.

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Read again.

Wiki says otherwise. Wasn’t sure so checked it, it seems I was wrong with wow and cs:go only.

And this is where I pointed out how we can never be sure if the system is working as it was working before OR it was “improved” between bfa and sl and now tries to slow down mmr gains.
It doesn’t matter what the internet says about maths if Blizz has his own version without publicity.

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Of course they manipulate the ladder, they do it constantly in every expansion.
But the reason for this congestion of players at a lower rating than before is because the placement games are subsequently made much harder due to the impact of gear and bigger emphasis on playing well, since being punished for mistakes equals a loss now. It went slower in the past, so while you’d be punished for a mistake, it wouldn’t lead to a loss just a second later, meaning there was more room to recover from mistakes on a detailed level of gameplay.

It also creates even more disparity between “meta comps”, vs. the “off-meta” comps, so the “off-meta” struggles much more than usual.

Which is how the congestion of rating has moved down.

The Wiki hasn’t been updated in a long time (not sure which one you checked, but w/e). cs:go and WoW uses their own adaptions of Glicko RD, and while I’m not sure about OW I’m still fairly sure it uses Glicko as well, since MMR volatility is commonplace in online PvP these days.

Elo doesn’t have that. The Elo system is just a linear path to improve or drop in rating, unlike the systems that use rating deviation (i.e. the MMR volatility).

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