Moonkin in 11.0.5: Bringing back interesting gameplay

[Åurõra-blackmoore]

Hi there,

back with some more Balance Druid feedback regarding the proposed 11.0.5. PTR changes. I won’t spent time on the class tree, everyone already said what needs to be done, we basically need a rework on the the level of what Paladin is getting in 11.0.5.

So let’s move onto Moonkin

A gameplay replacement for Pulsar

The reasoning for removing Primordial Arcanic Pulsar was certainly sound. But even the changes in 11.0.5. do not address the gameplay that was lost because of it’s removal.

After thinking about it I came up with an idea that might solve a few issues Moonkin had over the course of Alpha, Beta and even on live, and hopefully prevents them from popping up again in the future.

So here is my suggestion for a baseline effect for Balance Druid, inspired by a mixture of Umbral Embrace, Surge of Insanity from Shadow Priest and Tempest from Elemental Shaman:

Every 200 Astral Power spent during Lunar Eclipse replaces your next Wrath cast during Lunar Eclipse with Astral Wrath. Astral Wrath deals the same damage as Starfire in Astral spell school damage and explodes for X% of it’s damage around the target, as well as proccing every effect Wrath can proc (Touch of the Cosmos, Astral Smolder, etc.)

Every 200 Astral Power spent during Solar Eclipse replaces your next Starfire cast during Solar Eclipse with Astral Starfire. Astral Starfire deals the same damage as Wrath in Astral spell school damage as well as proccing every effect Starfire can proc (Touch of the Cosmos, Astral Smolder, etc.)

To make Celestial Alignment more impactful as a cooldown and have it meaningfully change your gameplay, I would propose to lower the threshold to proc this effect to 100 Astral Power during it and it would proc both because both Eclipses are active.

To prevent overcapping, make it stack up to 2 or 3 times.

This would do a few things:

• Builder should not overtake spenders anymore in any scenarios because they interact with each other in a meaningful way within the base kit
• It brings back the feeling of working towards something meaningful when spending Astral Power, similar to what Arcanic Pulsar was doing
• It gives Moonkin a proc it desperately needs to break up the monotony of the rotation
• Sells the fantasy of empowering your builders by overloading them with Astral energy

To make it even more impactful you could bring back the visuals that were present during for Umbral Embrace during the DF Beta for this effect.

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Reshuffling of the talent tree

I like most of the changes in the talent tree going into 11.0.5. Still there is some things I would like to see addressed:

• Warrior of Elune seems to have outlived it’s purpose, Nature’s Grace is just more intuitive and fun to cycle faster into Eclipses. Please replace this with something more interesting
  
  
• With Circle of Life and Death, and how fast DoTs fall of right now I would like to see Stellar Flare have a change where it either applies both DoTs or refreshes them to their full duration, to spend less time redotting in Single Target situations
  
  
• With my proposed change from above, Umbral Embrace and Umbral Inspiration would have to be redesigned. Maybe something similar to Stellar Empowerment from Legion to make DoTs scale into AoE a bit more would be nice
  
  
• Goldrinn is still a bit of RNG for a talent that should boost our Single Target reliably. Maybe make it proc from every or every other Starsurge instead of being a 33% chance
  
  
• Rattle the Stars is still a pretty boring node when compared to Starweaver. Maybe replace that with something more interesting that provides pure AoE, while Starweaver provides a bit of a hybrid/prio niche
  
  
• Fury of Elune and New Moon feel a bit tacked on right now, as the talent tree rewards you for casting builders a lot. Maybe it would be interesting to reimagine those a bit, for example Moons could count as Wrath and Starfire for the purpose of some talents and proc their effects. It could also be a spender instead of a generator, proccing Starsurge effects and doing something interesting on top

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Hero Talent Feedback

Elune's Chosen

The biggest issue that remains from the Alpha/Beta cycle of TWW is still Lunar Calling. It goes against the core gameplay of choosing Eclipse and casting Starfire in Single Target just is not fun. Please consider removing this an replacing it with something that captures the Arcane/Lunar theme of Elune’s Chosen without ripping apart gameplay.

Every time this talent is tuned to be the go-to, Moonkin is worse off because of it in my opinion.

Keeper of the Grove

I'm one of the people that don't hate the idea of Treants as the basis of a hero talent tree. Still, they could certainly look and feel more impactful.
Issues I had while playtesting on PTR include:

• Bounteous Bloom generates far too much Astral Power, making you overcap or spend outside of Eclipse, especially when combined with Convoke the Spirits. Maybe consider shifting that Astral Power generation into other parts of the tree as well, or giving us more maximum Astral Power with Expansiveness.
• Treants of the Moon remains kind of lame, I would much rather see the Treants cast Wrath or Starsurge for flavor. Spreading Moonfire is usually done while the Tank sets up the pull by the Druid itself, so you don’t want to pop Treants early and waste the DPS window just to apply a few Moonfires
• The visuals of the hero tree are still kind of lackluster

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That’s about it for now. After playing Balance Druid since the end of Mists of Pandaria I really enjoyed the visuals and playstyle of the spec. TWW is the first time I moved away from it because how awful it felt the whole of Alpha and Beta, and even going into live.

The 11.0.5 changes are certainly a step in the right direction, but a bit more gameplay similar to what I suggested above would certainly bring me (and I hope a lot of other people) back to the spec.

Thank you for reading, and have a great day

[Nidrien-burning-legion]

I am not expert but I have been playing different characters across different expansions (mostly pvp, but also pve).

Right now (and in past expansion also) I have been not understand some decisions.

First is a talent tree for druids.
Why we have to pick useless talents deep in the tree to get defensives or some usefull talents? For example Instincts of the Claw to get stun and two must have def talents.
Rejuvenation (I will talk about healing after the talents) locks Remove Corruption.
And probably there is more useless choices that we have to get only to unlock path.
I know what was intention, left side of tree is for spec 1, middle spec 2, right spec 3… got it.
But for rest of the classes this concept works much better then for druid.
First druid have 4 classes and all are different, so our left tree is like 1/4 of all other trees, and some of the other trees have much better synergy with all specs, and much less nodes are completly useless.

Our defences
… ok to be fair, we have no defences, all our def were working wifht high mobility. Right now we have weak mobility comparing with classes that have multiple gap closers, snear removals, immunes etc.

So our def works like, we pop barkskin and Renewal no maximize healing when we want to burst. All other def will stop our burst, and thats ok, but… 1 global to enter bear, 2 global to press frenzied regeneration, we are waiting sped 5 sec to go back to moonkin form and oru healing when we taking damage starts at 50% and ends at 50% hp.
I mean, all healing were consumed by damage of the oponent. In this time we deal 0 damage to them, or bearly nothing from our dots.
We can use nother 2 global cd to press Heart of the wild (so ur 50% is now 40% hp) and another Frenzied regeneration to see after 3 sec that our health is maybe around 50% this time.
Conclusin is, we can die sooner or later, but in equal fight its always lose.

Smothly to our mobility
Our def was weak, because we have had best mobility in the game. Even not mobility is not bad, but so what? If anyona can gapclose you, snear, and have long immunities to snears or many slow break instant spells, you cannot get away anymore.
So mobility was a part of def, right now its gone, makes our def even worse.

Healing
That is fun, I was plaing in Draenor Regrowth + Rejuvenetion to have stron self healing kiting people. And I check it now,
Rejuvenation is 190k healing over 12 sec with my 6kk healthpool, it gives 3% over 12 sec.
To be clear, over 12 sec I will be dead… twice. People basic builders deal more then 180k dmg, and we have talent that heals us for this amount over 12 sec? Is it a joke? If yes, it was not even funny.
Regrowth is 7% (5% per 1 sec, it will be better with further expansion probably)
For damage specs avarage time to burst down a target is 7sec, for 6kk healthpull it is 860k dps. Adding to this weak def and mobility that not longer works, we couldnt even overheal the damage.

Damage
Damage is decent, ocasionaly it works well.
It works good in group fight, even playing single target builds, ok.
Even spenders starts to hit little more than builders I think.
But… right now damage is to weak comparet to our defences that prevent us from burst.
For example, paladin can hit me instantly for 1,3kk (robably execute skill, but it is 1,3kk bala have not execute skills)
Hunter execute 1kk
And some caster hits that i notice:
1kk affliction warlock shadow bolt(it is dot spec that hits with instant shadow bolt more then caster spec?
Warlock, hing of crits hits 3times in row 1,4kk with shadowbolt, but it was fine, he has to cast it 3 times, and I don’t have interrupt.
Comparing to my burst, 500k - 860k crits with starsurge.
Having so weak def it should hit much harder.

In my opinion our damage is good, this rotation is poor, and force us to cast starfire, and I expect oti hit more then 200 - 400k after 2 sec cast didnt you? Everymelee can easly hit me for 200-1kk in one sec a I am not an expert, but I have been playing different characters across various expansions (mostly PvP, but always some PvE).

Right now (and in past expansions as well), I do not understand some decisions.

Talent Tree for Druids: Why do we have to pick useless talents deep in the tree to get defensives or some useful talents? For example, Instincts of the Claw to get a stun and two must-have defensive talents. Rejuvenation (I will talk about healing after the talents) locks Renewal and Corruption. There are probably more useless choices that we have to get only to unlock a path. I understand the intention: the left side of the tree is for spec 1, the middle for spec 2, and the right for spec 3. Got it. But for the rest of the classes, this concept works much better than for druids. Druids have 4 specs, and all are different, so our left tree is like 1/4 of all other trees. Some of the other trees have much better synergy with all specs and much fewer nodes that are completely useless.

Defenses: To be fair, we have no defenses. All our defenses worked with high mobility. Right now, we have weak mobility compared to classes that have multiple gap closers, snare removals, immunities, etc. Our defense works like this: we pop Barkskin and Renewal to maximize healing when we want to burst. All other defenses will stop our burst, and that’s okay, but… 1 global to enter bear form, 2 globals to press Frenzied Regeneration, we wait 5 seconds to go back to Moonkin form, and our healing when taking damage starts at 50% and ends at 50% HP. I mean, all healing is consumed by the opponent’s damage. During this time, we deal 0 damage to them, or barely anything from our dots. We can use another 2 global CDs to press Heart of the Wild (so our 50% is now 40% HP) and another Frenzied Regeneration to see after 3 seconds that our health is maybe around 50% this time. The conclusion is, we can die sooner or later, but in an equal fight, it’s always a loss.

Mobility: Our defense was weak because we had the best mobility in the game. Even if our mobility is not bad now, so what? If anyone can gap close, snare, and have long immunities to snares or many slow break instant spells, you cannot get away anymore. So mobility was a part of our defense, and right now it’s gone, making our defense even worse.

Healing: This is fun. I was playing in Draenor with Regrowth + Rejuvenation to have strong self-healing while kiting people. And I checked it now: Rejuvenation is 190k healing over 12 seconds with my 6kk health pool, which gives 3% over 12 seconds. To be clear, over 12 seconds I will be dead… twice. People’s basic builders deal more than 180k damage, and we have a talent that heals us for this amount over 12 seconds? Is it a joke? If yes, it was not even funny. Regrowth is 7% (5% per 1 second, it will be better with further expansion probably). For damage specs, the average time to burst down a target is 7 seconds. For a 6kk health pool, it is 860k DPS. Adding to this weak defense and mobility that no longer works, we couldn’t even overheal the damage.

Damage: Damage is decent; occasionally it works well. It works well in group fights, even playing single target builds. Even spenders start to hit a little more than builders, I think. But right now, damage is too weak compared to our defenses that prevent us from bursting. For example, a Paladin can hit me instantly for 1.3kk (probably an execute skill, but it is 1.3kk; Balance has no execute skills). Hunter executes for 1kk. And some caster hits that I noticed: 1kk Affliction Warlock Shadow Bolt (it is a dot spec that hits with instant Shadow Bolt more than a caster spec?). Warlock, a string of crits hits 3 times in a row for 1.4kk with Shadow Bolt, but it was fine, he has to cast it 3 times, and I don’t have an interrupt. Comparing to my burst, 500k - 860k crits with Starsurge. Having such weak defense, it should hit much harder.

In my opinion, our damage is good, but the rotation is poor and forces us to cast Starfire. I expect it to hit more than 200 - 400k after a 2-second cast, don’t you? Every melee can easily hit me for 200k - 1kk.

and this as continuation nd you force us in rotation to cast 2s to hit for 200-400
As far as I see 11.0.5 not changing this, maybe even 2sec castw will do less damage.

So, If our def mobility and healing will stay in that state, we should deal much more damage to stand vs others.
If you will fix talents, def, mobility and healing, in my opinion damage is good enogh, But before I do a space to do some damage in most cases I am dead.

…And seriously, 3% healing over 12 seconds? That alone speaks volumes about the current state of druids.

[Rollklops-thrall]

Bad take sorry. Tons of reasons why I don’t want any “after 200 astral power spent” mechanics back.

If you die your whole parse and damage goes downhill. Pulsar was the most annoying game mechanic ever introduced and I’m glad it’s gone.

11.0.5 on ptr feels fun, I hope they don’t follow your tips

[Electrocutes-ravencrest]

Circle of Life and Death - was removed a while back because of the same reason, dot duration was just too short and people complained of dots falling off to fast in single target situations. Talent is fine if you take Aetheral as you can spam starfall to keep them up. But you dont do that on single target.

New Celestial Alignment talent just feels like a cheap fix to the removal of Pulsar to try fill the gap where the damage is low without cooldowns.

I’d like to see the dots back proccing instant starsurges, Panda was the most enjoyable boomy has ever been and that was with the ridiculous moving eclipse

[Rála-doomhammer]

Honestly, they should rework the complete druid as a class. Compared to a paladin we are a joke. As tank, healer and sadly dps.

[Kalistasis-lone-wolf]

Blizzard have always had huge issues with the whole Eclipse system. It could be fun, but none of the iterations have really worked well. Current iteration they went with basically removing it, especially as Elune’s Chosen (you basically just spam Starfire with two wraths once every 15 sec).

I think they need to really move away from current Eclipse and completely reinvent it.

The big issue is that if Starfire is AoE and Wrath is ST, then it can’t be on rotation, because you will always spent half the time in the wrong Eclipse. And being able to continuously get into the same defeats the whole purpose of it - at that point you could just remove it.

Personally I’d like something like a toggle between Sun and Moon modes. One being ST, the other AoE. In Sun mode your Starfire becomes Solar Fire. In Moon mode your Wrath becomes Lunar Wrath.

Now instead of cycling between solar and lunar eclipse, make you cycle between being “in the sunlight / moonlight” and being under the Eclipse.

So for example in Sun mode you keep going between sunlight and solar eclipse, each version giving a different bonus. One empowers Wrath, the other Solar Fire. But both are single target, and this just works to make the rotation more fun and less spammy of a single spell. Then for Lunar mode, it’s the same but for Lunar Wrath and Starfire.

You can then add additional complexity (possibly from talents) with OP’s Astral Wrath idea (and Astral Starfire). So for example you sit in Sunlight spamming Wrath, then you can proc a Astral Starfire that would become the priority spell. In Solar Eclipse it’s opposite, you get Astral Wrath sometimes to break up your Solar Fire spam. And same idea in Lunar mode of course.

Thematically it also makes more sense to cycle between the eclipse being present and not being present, rather than cycle between a solar and lunar eclipse - that’s not how eclipses work.

The toggle can be something off GCD, just a way to enter whatever ST or AoE needs you have. Use the Eclipse system to make interesting rotations, not as a weird ST / AoE choice, it will never work, as many years attempt have shown.

[Electrocutes-ravencrest]

that sounds worse than what we got now. just remove it all together its just not needed.

wrath = single target
starfire(what it should be called still) = aoe

thats it. doesnt need an eclipse, you got a big cooldown, if you want the word eclipse with a buff modifier in it.

just get rid of it, get rid of starweaver, just go back to having your dots have a chance to proc a free starsurge so it brings in a little reactive faster pace and a little bit of dmg on the move which it needs.