My thoughts on the upcoming WW changes and tier

  • MONK

    • Paralysis now breaks based on a small damage threshold instead of any damage.
    • Windwalker
      • New Talent: Slicing Winds – Envelop yourself in razor-sharp winds, then lunge forward dealing Nature damage to enemies in your path. Damage reduced beyond 5 enemies. Hold to increase lunge distance. Replaces Flying Serpent Kick.
      • Mastery: Combo Strikes effectiveness increased by 35%.
        • Developers’ notes: We’re increasing the value Mastery: Combo Strikes for Windwalker Monks with the goal of pushing it as a stat.
      • Dance of the Wind has been redesigned – Now reduces physical damage taken by 10% and an additional 10% every 4 seconds until you receive a physical attack.
      • All damage done reduced by 2%.
      • Spinning Crane Kick damage increased by 80%.
      • Courageous Impulse now increases the damage of Blackout Kick by 350% (was 200%).
      • Shadowboxing Treads now increases the damage of Blackout Kick by 10% (was 20%).
      • The following talents have been removed:
        • Darting Hurricane
        • Mark of the Crane
      • Conduit of the Celestials
        • Heart of the Jade Serpent no longer reduces the cooldown of Rising Sun Kick.
        • Heart of the Jade Serpent now reduces the cooldown of Flying Serpent Kick.

Tier set bonuses:

  • (2) Set Bonus: Your spells and abilities have a chance to activate a Winning Streak! increasing the damage of your Rising Sun Kick and Spinning Crane Kick by 3%, stacking up to 10 times. Rising Sun Kick and Spinning Crane Kick have a 15% chance to remove Winning Streak!

  • (4) Set Bonus: Fists of Fury applies 1 stack of Winning Streak! when cast and when finished channeling completely. The damage of your next Fists of Fury is increased by 5% per stack when Winning Streak! is removed. Your Winning Streak! is always removed once it reaches max stacks.

Let’s start with the elephant in the room: Mark of the Crane is being removed. I’m not a huge fan of this change, I like MotC and it’s a fairly unique Windwalker feature. The 80% buff to Spinning Crane Kick is meant as a compensation which is obviously necessary, and it comes out as slightly net positive (about 13% more SCK damage, assuming 5 motc pre-change). I’m a little worried that this will give Spinning Crane Kick too much value in anything but pure single target situations (and possibly even make Dance of Chi-Ji a lock-in talent for single target builds), rather than exponentially increasing in value up to 5 targets. Perhaps this could be fixed by baking it into the base spell, like “damage increased by 18% per target struck, up to 5 targets”.

It wasn’t announced in the blue post, but the datamine showed a buff to Rushing Jade Wind of about 30%, presumably to compensate for the loss in utility of applying Mark of the Crane to all targets struck by Strike of the Windlord. However, in my opinion, this doesn’t resolve the problem that Rushing Jade Wind and Storm, Earth, and Fire are too bland without MotC. Rushing Jade Wind is now nothing but “do some passive aoe damage after casting SotWL”, and SEF is just “do 20% more damage for 15 seconds (not counting adverse bugs)”. With MotC gone, both of these talents need something to spice them up.

The next big one is the new talent, Slicing Winds. This is a carbon copy of the Plunderstorm ability of the same name, datamined to deal 600% Attack power to all targets, damage reduced beyond 5, replacing Flying Serpent Kick if talented. This talent replaces Darting Hurricane, which is being removed.
Honestly, I’m excited about this one. I’m a big fan of dealing damage with movement abilities (despite the apprehension many people feel about it), and the initial value is quite high. I just hope it will be adjusted to be instantly castable, which I don’t believe was the case with the Plunderstorm ability.
I would very much appreciate if the name and aesthetic were changed, though. I keep repeating this, but Windwalkers aren’t Airbenders. The only wind-based ability we have any reason to have is Strike of the Windlord, and even that is tenuous because it was originally power we borrowed from Al’Akir the Windlord (and later relinquished). I’ve always interpreted the name Windwalker to refer to graceful movement in the sense of “walking with or as the wind”, not that we have any inherent connection with the Air element. The in-universe history of the class and specialization doesn’t imply any such connection, either. This argument applies to a few other abilities, see Thematic update suggestions for more about that.

Tangent aside, next up we have another pretty significant buff to the effectiveness of Mastery. This follows the near identical buff during the TWW Windwalker rework, and I can’t really complain. Mastery is honestly already quite good, but there’s nothing wrong with it getting even better. More stat value = better item level scaling, and I’ll never complain about that.

The Dance of the Wind is unexpected but very welcome, and an interesting answer to the squishiness of Windwalker in mythic+. Physical damage is kind of a blind spot for us, since our strongest defensive spell, Diffuse Magic, unsurprisingly only works against magic damage. This change means that Dance of the Wind will work against physical abilities that cannot be dodged, while keeping the same overall “immunity” against single big hits. In fact, this could lead to situations where Windwalkers (and Mistweavers, incidentally) are able to take a tank buster if the tank isn’t able to handle it, possibly even in raid.

The overall 2% damage nerf is likely to balance out against the Mastery buff, I don’t really care. 2% is so little that it’s basically background noise between the other changes, so not worth worrying about.

Courageous Impulse is buffed to 350%, up from 200%. This is a bit surprising, since I believed CI to be in a good spot after its last buff. This now puts it at more than twice the value it had before Nov. 26th.

Shadowboxing Treads buffs Blackout Kick’s base damage by 10%, down from 20%. That’s probably fair, 20% was a pretty steep ST increase for what’s arguably a cleave talent. Might also be intended to balance out the CI increase.

I don’t really play Celestial Conduit very often, so I can’t say much about the Heart of the Jade Serpent changes. The addition of Flying Serpent Kick is likely to make it interact with Slicing Winds, but I don’t know what the impact of removing the interaction with Rising Sun Kick will be.

Wrapping up the changes, the Paralysis change is nice, no comments. Veteran’s Eye now officially stacks, instead of pretending it’s supposed to be overlapping, which is good. Martial Instincts now has a pet flag, which is probably supposed to make it work with SEF damage, although that doesn’t seem to be fully implemented yet. It seems like they’ve also finally fixed SEF damage getting buffed by Acclamation, which is a pretty huge fix. Let’s confirm that on the live servers before celebrating that, though.

Let’s move on to the tier set bonuses. I was a bit concerned when I heard that the 2-set bonuses were going to be role-specific rather than unique per spec, but the fact that it buffs spec-specific spells makes up for it a bit. It still feels a bit like a cost-cutting measure, but that’s more about vibes than results. The total set bonus is fine in terms of design, but it’s completely passive and probably not even worth tracking. In my opinion, tier sets are supposed to mix up the playstyle of their spec for a given season, so that’s kind of a missed mark. It also risks being quite weak, we’ll have to see the proc rate on the 2-set to be sure, but it’s hard to imagine it being more than about 7-8% for the combined bonuses.

So, what’s left?
Well, there’s a large Strike-of-the-Windlord shaped hole in the blue post. I’ve briefly alluded to it in my Windwalker Wishlist post from Oct. 29th, but SotWL’s aoe scaling really needs to be addressed.
For those unaware of its history, SotWL was originally released in Legion as a big uncapped aoe nuke, which turned out to be pretty overpowered and was quickly reined in. This was long before square root scaling was introduced, and even reduced secondary target scaling wasn’t added to Fists of Fury yet. The solution that the devs came up with for SotWL was to let it always do 100% damage against the main target, and (1 / targetCount) against all other targets. To give some examples, on 2 targets, the main target takes 100% and the single secondary target takes 100 / 2 = 50%, or 150% total. On 5 targets, the main target takes 100%, and the 4 secondary targets take 100 / 5 = 20%, or 180% total. On 20 targets, it’s 100 + (100 / 20) * 19, or 195% total. In other words, the total damage asymptotically approaches 2x base damage as target count increases. This is far poorer scaling than any other supposed AoE ability in the game, at least until Celestial Conduit came in with its pathetic 6% per target up to 30%. This is especially aggravating because the tooltip boldly claims that it strikes “all enemies”, with no mention of a reduced scaling factor, never mind to this degree.
To make a long story short, please give Strike of the Windlord and Celestial Conduit a proper 5 target square root scaling formula. This would be an easy fix to our currently lackluster aoe damage profile, as well as a not unwelcome buff to our overall aoe performance (yes, still).

Another thing left notably untouched is Jadefire Stomp et al. Don’t misunderstand, the changes during the TWW rework were positive and left the spell more bearable than before, but the result is an excessively boring and disconnected ability. It has no resource cost, no interaction with other abilities, and without spending even more talent points, no value beyond its pitiful damage. This is a spell that could, without hyperbole, be added to literally any other spec with zero adjustments and work perfectly fine. That’s very bad.

In conclusion, the changes are a mixed bag of interesting stuff and some minor disappointments, nothing earth shattering. Tier is a bit too boring, could do with some actual gameplay impact.

4 Likes

I really don’t get it, why everyone is crying about motc is getting deleted.
It’s the best thing that could happen to us. Maintaining this buff through a M+ was pur pain and resulted in 200+ extra keyboard pushes through tabing around.
I really hope this will go live and Blizz is deleting this even from their buckups, so it will never come back.
Next step is getting rid of dance of chiji procs so our dmg is less a luck game.

2 Likes

One of the reasons I stopped doing PVE as a WW monk was the MOTC, play my ret >>> big hammer boom, DH >>> big sweeps, DK(UH) pet > aoe disease and aoe >> still has easier ramp. I’m most intrigued by the slicing wind talent …

2 Likes

The can rework the general talent tree and give us a more points or put talents together
So we dont have too miss out on major mechanics and talents

Short background before we begin, I currently maintain the action priority list (apl) for our beloved spec. Alot of my comments will therefore be based around our playstyle and numbers.

There is alot to go through, so I will take it step by step:

Paralysis change - good, but I doubt this will help alot
Slicing Winds instead of Darting Hurricane: Darting Hurricane being removed is a bit two sided. It fit our current shadopan playstyle very well and the main issue (rng procs) could have been fixed easily. Maybe we can see it returned in the future - without rng.
Slicing Winds is definetely an interesting approach. I presume it will be very wide to allow us to hit the whole pack. The positioning of it is unfortunate but we will get to that later.

Mastery Buff - Good Change, more ability damage and less reliant on damage/trinket procs is always good. Also a conduit buff which is mostly irrelevant but we will get to that later.

Dance of the Wind redesign - this one is very mixed. On the one hand, the design is amazing and it’s extremly powerful and fixes a problem windwalker has had for a long time now (physical damage we can’t dodge). On the other hand, it’s so powerful it forces us to use it as utility to taunt any physical tankbuster/mechanic. It should probably have the stack generation increased but the damage reduction lowered to stop it from getting abused.

Damage reduction - maybe as a hint for bugfixes we are getting but generally unnecessary, we’ll see.

Mark of the Crane removal: This one is a bit sad. Mark of the Crane was definetely something that allowed Windwalker to set it self from the pack. With all the current tools at our disposal, it also was not very hard to manage at all and it allowed sck to only be an important ability in high target counts - as it should. In general this change also doesn’t fix our glaring issue which is high target aoe where we are very weak. This will not address this problem and will likely continue to hinder us from being strong in keys.

CI buff - makes sense, they are pushing more blackout kick and apparently don’t want this proc to affect our teachings of the monastery stacks. It mostly results in a cleave damage increase/slight boss damage increase in keys.

SBT nerf - this is probably to stop it from being taken in pure st situations. This is fine.

Conduit of the Celestial changes: This one makes absolutely no sense Removing Rising Sun kick from heart of the jade serpent is a significant nerf to conduits st/cleave. After all their efforts to make conduit viable, this one line pushes it back into insignificance for raiding. Adding Flying Serpent Kick is done for slicing winds but that doesn’t really help since rising sun kick is so much more powerful than this new abiltiy. Slicing Winds may be stronger in Aoe but conduit has no place in aoe until they finally decide to make conduit SQRT damage. Until then, these changes just push conduit further into uselessness.

The Tierset:
The Good:

  • it does not have negative implications for our gameplay. This has not been the case for many of our ptr tiersets in the past (sad but true).
  • It can be easily tuned
  • It looks AMAZING. Our mog section in the Peak of serenity discord will blow up.

The Bad:

  • Right now it’s looking to be around 5% dps in st which is not alot. Further tuning will be required unless they decide all sets should be this weak.
  • It has zero gameplay interactions. Combined with their changes to conduit this means windwalker will likely play exactly the same in Season 2. Our gameplay may be quite fluid right now, but surely some sort of tiredness will kick in for the community. Pressing tiger palm 1000 times for half a year straight is not that fun.

I wished the tierset would be changing our gameplay but oh well, I guess we will have to live with this for now. At this point they might aswell remove tiersets.

Additionally, there are alot of aspects that are missing that I wish would be addressed:

  • Sotwl/Rjw tuning? All of this is very weak and likely to be completely dropped now in favour of blackout kick talents. Losing this iconic spell will not feel very great.
  • Jadefire stomp/Crackling Jade Lightning? Feels like a huge opportunity missed here. Both spells could have been used to change our gameplay in Season 2, particularly crackling Jade lightning. Leaving them alone means we have 6 dead talents in our tree right now that nobody will care about. That’s just sad and could be easily fixed. If you don’t want to rework the tierset (which you honestly should, make it do something) , at least buff these talents.

As a last note, it appears we may be getting some needed bugfixes for stealth bugs that have existed throughout Season 1 and impacted our damage negatively. I welcome this change and hope everything gets cleaned up.

Thanks for all that managed to read through this detailed analysis.

Kholer

2 Likes

MOTC being removed is such a mixed bag for me. It’s something that always made monk feel unique but if it’s being removed, I now have a lesser opinion on SEF and SOTW. Without MOTC these should either be buffed, fixed or just replaced. SEF is boring and buggy, without MOTC it just feels like a hinderance.

1 Like

Good thing that they got rid of MotC. It was a boring maintanance buff, nothing else.
I really like the Mastery and DotW buffs.

I am wondering why they didnt replace SEF with a Cooldown that actually functions. Merge Xuen + SEF into 1 CD that grants multistrike on all spells for 15sec and increase our dmg by 20%. Less bugs and it does the same. 1,5min CD and 2 Charges.

1 Like

some excellent points, but I very much disagree on the MOTC feedback. Tabbing through targets as a skill expression is just not very interesting and feels incredibly clunky. I’m glad to see it removed.

4 Likes

I like the idea of Slicing Winds but cant help it to think it should just take the place JFS and have the nodes below it work with this new ability (they already kind of do) Slicing could leave a wind trail on the ground for extra movement speed, stacking dmg per targets hit up to a cap, extra dmg for hitting a single target. Or come up with new ideas for ralents idk.

Also with motc gone can we please just fix sef and make it visual only, let the main monk be the source of all dmg, maybe throw in a range extension for the duration so fof, sck can cover more ground while sef is active.

3 Likes

MotC was fine when our BoK cleave could still proced it, now it is just a way to add a mandatory talent point RJW which is lame.
Fun fact, with courageous impulse being buffed from 200% to 350% and SCK being buffed by 80% and mastery being buffed by 35%, DoCJ is now really decent in ST and a build with revolving whirl should be on par with knowledge of the broken temple.

1 Like

I don’t know if it’s even worth the time to provide feedback on WW changes because it always seems to fall on deaf ears.

Tierset being shared by role is just bad. Similar was done in SoD with gems. I can’t see it as anything more than cost-cutting. WWs tierset is boring.

WW utility is outdated and needs an overhaul. Plenty of good feedback already given that was ignored. One of my favorites was adding a 2nd charge of ring as a choice node versus removing the knock effect from it while making it silence anything in it.

Para acting as a soothe effect is cool but again, too long cd, every other class does it better with a 1/3 of the cd and even gets resources back for doing so. WW loses a form of CC to accomplish the same.

Tigers’ lust is an awful blessing of freedom. Paladin had 3? waves of pretty big updates since early DF. I’m not expecting WW to get anything going into 12.0 at this point, it’s crazy how overshadowed by mage or paladin it is.

The list goes on, you’re never bringing a WW for their dmg, utility, or even dmg buff. Every other class is just better.

The 2% damage nerf added at the back of these changes is tone-deaf and tilting AF.

Courageous Impulse buffing ToM BoKs is at least to me a good form of skill expression that would feel good. You can set it up, hold it, and use it when needed to drop a guillotine of dmg that feels rewarding. Please spend some time on the drawing board for WW because I’ve given up. BrM players are also beyond frustrated. The US forums are a much better reflection of the ever-growing frustration.

I like the Plunderstorm charge ability being added, evoker-esque abilities with stages similar to breath can be cool, assuming they’re not a carbon copy from Plunderstorm. I imagine this is to test the waters and see how people feel about it.

Remove SEF, jadefire stomp, and redesign or replace conduit as a hero spec, I don’t like it and it feels out of place.

It’s not worth the dev time fixing SEF every single patch when that time could be allocated to anything else WW needs. SCK still canceling since 11.0.2 :^) albeit less than it did before. etc

Weapons of order look cooler and more modern than SEF or Serenity ever did.

Genuinely happy MM Hunter got an update and Dark Ranger got the visual update it deserved before that. Can WW get that?

P.S. At one point there was a build being tossed around that avoided taking SEF without a noticeable damage loss. Im sure the bugs contributed to this but imagine if the same happened to combustion. It would have been fixed with a hotfix rather than waiting for the next expansion that will ‘hopefully’ make it better.