Mythic plus - leaving & depleting keys

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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Hey,

I think this is my first or second post ever.

I want to talk about mythic plus and leaving/depleting keys.

I really enjoy the actual gameplay of mythic plus, and so far I like it in war within.
But I would say that 80% of the time when I “play” mythic plus isn’t actually any gameplay. It is trying to find groups, it is players leaving keys so fast and so often even when timers would be met, and the depletion of keys.

This is ruining the game for me. And I guess people can call me crybaby or similar when writing this post but I don’t care. Trying to play mythic plus makes me sad. It really does.
The structure of it is so incredibly punishing it’s unphatomable to me that it still is like this.

  • Why can players leave a started mythic plus dungeon after 2 minutes with no punishment at all? Anyone out of 4 players can just decide to leave the key and ruining 1 persons key, because the key gets depleted. How can this go unpunished? Where is the que penalty timer? You have it in arenas & BGs. Why don’t everyone’s key in the group get depleted?

  • Or better: Why even have deplete of keys? Isn’t failing the key (not time it) or having players leaving the key and destroying it on purpse fail enough? Spending 5-30 minutes to make a group, play for 5-45 min and lose the key, in many cases spend over 1 hour to fail a key. How is that not the punishment? Failing the key should be the fail?
    But no, the key gets depleted and you have to repeat the proccess to have a small chance of getting it back up again. If fail again, well then it is two steps up.

A player can spend several hours on a fine gaming day to end up where they started. That is incredibly sad and crazy.

I’m not a pro gamer but I think I’m decent and I try to play better everytime. Currently I have 3092 rio with all keys timed on 13 except one where I have timed on 14.
I just spent about 30 minutes to make a group for my own 13 dawnbreaker, which is the only 14 key I have timed so winning this key would be awesome because it would give me a 14 key I haven’t timed and a chance on something new!
We talk about the route, I suggest to the tank to make one pull smaller because it’s a hard one with a lot of damage, he says ok, when we get there, he still does the big pull and just flops dead causing a group wipe. It’s sad sure but there is still plenty of time to win this key. I suggest again just do smaller and we got this. He says no, and leaves the key.

In this scenario I have been so unfairly punished it’s crazy. No one else, not the person leaving the key, not one in the group, gets any form of punishment. But my day and future several HOURS are needed for me to get back to where I started.

I don’t get invites to 95% of the 14 level keys I signup for because I’m a ret paladin which isn’t the meta that streamers play at 18 level keys.

This HUGE gatekeeping from EVERYTHING related to playing mythic plus is CREATED BY YOU BLIZZARD. YOU CREATE THIS. WHY?

Just because it is so insanley crazy punishing to fail a key, the meta slaving is crazy.

WHY depletion of keys? What fun does it bring to the game? NOTHING. WHY do you have it? WHO cares if some high level rank one streamers playing this game as their JOB would do a first pull and reset the key 100 times if it wasn’t perfect (if there was no depletion keys) WHO CARES?

HOW can players leaving keys on purpose, griefing them because some toxic chatting, etc, HOW can someone not get punished for leaving a key?

The amount of destruction, sadness, toxicity, insane, is created by YOU BLIZZARD because of 2 things that probably are SO EASY and GREATLY WELCOMING by the vast majority of mythic plus player base. I would take a guess that 95%+ of players want removal of key depletion and/or huge punishments for players leaving keys.

  • Remove depletion of keys
  • Give harsh punishments for leaving keys
  • Please explain to me why one or both of these things aren’t in the game?
  • Please, I do not understand, why, It makes players quit the game, don’t you want players playing your game so you make more money?
  • don’t you want to deliver a product players enjoy?
  • Why cater to the 0.1% of top players playing this game as their JOB and not focus on the 99.9% of players who actually are financing 10000% of your earnings.

I hate myself for even trying to play mythic plus at this level day after day now. I’ve done it for 2 weeks and I’ve just gotten so depressed and losing faith in humanity. I’ll just go jump because blizzard will never change this, I still wanted to write my frustraion.

GLHF,
Billy

4 Likes
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(https://discord.com/invite/nopressureeu)

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Thank you for the invite! :slight_smile:

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The mentioned game modes are matchmade while creating a M+ group is entirely voluntarily and formed by yourself.

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Sure that is true but as I see it, it’s terrible with no penalty system.

But, if penalty system won’t work, the #1 and best thing is to not have depletion of keys.

That can be done 100%. And it would make the game mode mythic plus so much better in every aspect.

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Sure, then you get people who luck on on “insert seasons easy key here”. They get it up to a 10 and then they underperform and people leave. No problem, they can keep making groups and underperforming, they’ll luck out eventually because failure is impossible!

It’s a bad idea.

2 Likes
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Alright my friend; if you like the current structure/deplete/no penalties of mythic plus, could you try and explain it to me? If you can convince me it’s a great system & nothing needs to change, if you change my mind it would be awesome because then I could enjoy the game as it is now.

I would want to enjoy the game, and possibly not spend so insane amount of time NOT playing the game, getting extremley punished when players just decide to leave. In the example I used. We had the timer so easy, it was not gonna be a problem to time the key at all, tank just decides to leave, my key is depleted, everyones time is wasted and my time is double wasted. How is this a good system?

Yep the groups are made by ourselves, sure. But it is also the only ingame option blizzard is offering us. With their ingame systems it is the only way; lfg tool or dungeon chat, in whatever way we are forced to make our own groups. And with their rating system, I think you are pretty familiar that there are plenty of “boosted” players that have all keys 10+ timed. Either friends, or ads in trade chat selling 10 timed for 160k… The amount of players with higher rating then they should have, are very high numbers. Removing deplete will then maybe have these players do what you are saying, instead of buying boosts.

I can log in now and find players with 2k rio looking for a group for their 12-13 grim batol because they got a boost of their 10 arakara +2 +3 by players boosting as friends or gold.

I don’t think the “undeserving players will get higher rating” is a strong enough argument as that is already happening all day everyday.

Also, if some random dude who plays bad times a 10 after doing it 25 times, why is that bothering you? Players performing better should get higher rating anyway, if they perform, because some 12+ and 13+ keys can’t be timed with really underperforming players, if that player plays same key 25 times and finally times it, he probably improved his gameplay in that dungeon. Or bought a boost. Nothing changes, that person will still get to the same rating

I’m also not saying I have the perfect solution. I posted it here because I want to either get a change in the game, or have someone make sense why the current system is good.

Whatever that will make me enjoy the system and then enjoy the game

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Because in your example its ruined the experience of 100 people. 4 people having a run go pear shaped 25 times.

How is that better than your run going pear shaped now and the dungeon turning into a key more in line with the groups you make can handle?

It’s not the random bad player, its the random bad player ruining other peoples experience.

The current system isn’t great. Your idea is probably worse. Join a community / make friends, then you aren’t at the mercy of pugs.

1 Like
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This is already happpening though, everything you say will happen if any change is made, is already happening every minute? People leave keys so fast every second, people are boosted and have higher rating then they should and then underperofm in keys they get invited to because the leader, (in this case me), invites people with similar score, similar keys timed, which to me makes sense right? Similar rating playing together. There is no way to tell if someone will leave the key / is boosted before starting the key. This is how it currently is. And it is ruining the experience of many, many players every day. With the information I can gather with the ingame tools given to me finding players with appropiate score, then a player leave during, or is bad. Result is same, I get harshly punished, and the others gets nothing punished. Then you gonna say “join others keys” but you also know how that is. You don’t get invites.

You answer and is chatting to me so I assume you play mythic plus in war within and if you have done lfg 12+ keys you know that this is a 100% fact.

I greatly appreciate you linking the discord, I joined it and it seems nice, I also have friends I play and we have fun and do well. So I should be restricted to using 3rd party tools such as discord or only play when all of my boys (who are 30+ years old and have kids and wives) can find time together to play.

These are good tools/solutions and I use them. But that doesn’t have anything to do with this. If I’m interested in just logging on and playing some keys using blizzards tools given to me, I should just expect to get ******* and take it and smile because it has always been like this?

So far the only insight you have brought is that my ideas/thoughts are bad, and go use 3rd pary tool discord, even though you think “the current system isn’t great.”

If that is what you think, I assume you would welcome a change?

So, if we don’t change anything right, then it won’t change and stay the same.
But if we change something, it might get better or worse, but should we be afraid to try something new or just continue to have it be bad because it’s aways been like this and it might get worse?

I’d gladly try something new and if bad just change back since that system is already available. Because the next step in my journey would be 14 keys, since I have all timed on 13. But I have yet been able to play 1 pull, 1 second, in a level 14 key, during all day, and I’ve been available, actively trying to join groups/get my own key up. This system isn’t working well in any way, other days as well.

I don’t mind loosing or failing, It shouldn’t be possible to win every key all the time, that’s not fun. But not even being able to play, at the next progress step, pretty much everyday, something is wrong

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quick counter question:
why are you playing most likely so bad that people leave so quickly your key?
If I see a free carry of a dps, then I want to leave real bad.
the entitled dps that think they should get a free pass while doing 500k dps and use no utility and die to stuff is staggering. sorry but those people dont deserve loot and score.
be happy some vile people dont leave right before the last boss to rile you up

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That brings you in the top 0.6% of the characters, prob even in a more selected group of accounts.

Yeah, well, a fine line but 0.1 or 0.6 to me can expect the same treatment.

Also, Retribution is kind of meta till at least 13s? Maybe even growing into the 14s.

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Nothing but a filthy assumption. Shame on you.

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yes very much an assumption not in any way a real experience by running over thousands of keys in the last years.

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Yeah this thinking makes no sense in what this discussion is about, some talking about lower performance maybe getting more score then they should, is happpening / will happen with some changes.

In the example I used, we as a team played well in Dawnbreaker 13. Fully clean until 1st pull after 1st boss. We go down to church, tank says “stay here” for his gathering of the pull. He pulls way to big, probably not using enough def cds as he flops before packs stacked or even being in healers range. This was the pull we talked about before being too big and not needed. He just leaves after dying on that pull. With our group and how it went up until then, we would still time the key playing at the level we were.

I don’t act entitled and I’d say many low performance players don’t do that as well, they got a high key with some luck and are excited to pump, nervous, plays terrible, and everyone hates them. But it’s something that can be expected if you play in a group where the key-holder has done (example) ara-kara 11 with a +2 as his best key, and now have 13 grim batol. I definitley don’t expect that player to perform at a grim batol 13 level, if he does it’s cool but you can’t expect that.

Wrote reply to @magnolias last post but cant post it as a reply to his post it seems like so here it is, new to the forum chat haha.

Alright, I didn’t actually think I was that high up. That makes a difference in my thinking for sure. Then I might agree no deplete could be a bad idea for keys, especially at lower levels.

I talked with a friend yesterday after he read this thread and his best idea was that if you leave a key in the first 15 or so minutes, you get a similar debuff as deserter, I know what you said about it being a fully player made group, and we also thought about people will just afk for those min and then leave.

Yeah indeed, 0.1 and 0.6 is pretty much the same, but again I honestly didn’t think I was up there.

Yes! Retri is extremley strong up and in all 13s, and some 14s, and even some 15s. I have played a few 15s , a good amount of 14s, but only timed 1 so far.

So yeah, they are strong, but the rating comparison of as example enhance/aug/rogue/dk is a lot higher, and when I try to join fully random groups, I pretty much get declined in every 14 key, around 95% of the time I que. That’s the kind of meta gatekeeping I’m thinking about. As retri is perfectly strong enough to perform in these keys, sometimes even better then other classes as it’s more about the player then the class. But ofc, a good player with better class wins most of the time.

The gatekeeping is there, and I think it’s mainly because of the way the system is, I know at least I would invite a lot more different then I do (and I think I invite more then others just because I know how it is to sit an entire day not getting to play) but Again I did not think I was in the 0.6 and that does change my perspective and thinking so I thank you for that.

I still think there must be some way, to make something happen, with players leaving keys so fast, and also when the chance of timing is still very high. I have many keys where we all agree that this one is done and we leave. That’s all good and actually preffered. But “ruining” a key for the keyholder isn’t fun.

But yeah, the solution might not be easy, but there must be something that can be done, or at least tried and see if it works!

1 Like
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Keystone system is way overdue for some changes. Imagine if raiders had to go back and kill the previous boss after a couple of wipes…?
The Delve system is superior where you simply need to unlock a certain tier, although for M+ it should obviously be on a pr dungeon basis.
Maybe implement some sort of cooldown on how many times pr hour you can reset a key to prevent abuse. Personally I’m not really affected much by leavers, since 90% my keys are done with a full group of friends. The few times we’ve had someone leave, it was justified because the run was horrible in some way or another.
Not sure what % of M+ just play solo with pugs vs a group of friends or guildies, but either way I think Blizzard could do something about the current situation.
The most obvious thing is to ease up a bit on depletion if someone leaves early in the key.

Of course, this can all be avoided by making friends, but I think the systems design as a whole doesn’t encourage people to make friends. If you’re a new player that’s introduced to all the different content, it’s always through random group finders - dungeon finder, raid finder, random bg, etc.

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i guess the issue is that this player got carried by the group and especially the healer was able to heal the fails. on +12 you just cannot heal through mistakes anymore.
it means trchnically you dont need to play different in a +10 or a +12. if you fail the +12 you played terrible in +10 as well, your behind was just carried by others, simple.
the biggest issue for modt fps that they absolutely have no clue how to use def cds. if you play healer you will notice very quickly when a dps should have prrssed a cd.
generally if you play healer it would make you a better dps as well. People that onpy play 1 role ever will not know stuff so quickly

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Without depletion & a cooldown on the amount of resets you can do per hour.
This sounds like a decent idea tbh!

And yeah, my POV in this whole discussion is from the in-game tools blizzard is giving as (lfg) and not outside scoures like discord/friends. I also play with friends etc but yeah: something with the system can be done and I like this thinking :slight_smile:

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just let thr key be restored for 200 valor stones.
it will make use of a garbage currency and it will limit thr amount of resets with thr chance to “unfail” your key sometimes.
the sweatlords can farm infinite vs by no lifing but it really doesnt affect most of us as we are not running for top 1 leader board

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Good idea in general. Ive done this on my resto shaman.
I started abit late, 2-3 weeks after everyone else. So i find it a real struggle to get into anything when playing non meta stuff.

However on my hunter, i cannot get into groups so i can get gilded and farm.

Anytime you play something non meta. Specially dps. You are so screwed.
Yday morning i did 4 mythics. Had a 7 GB, tank left after wiping on 2nd boss.

Ok so i run a 6 GB, get my key back up to 7 again. I have no need for runed, they do not upgrade my gear or anything.

I queue for some 8s cause im sick of wasting time not getting gilded. Both runs break apart. The last one on last boss in NW, cause the healer does not know how to dispel the frozen target when no one is near.

I end up spending 4 hours. For total reward of 5 Runed crests, which i do not need. I need 8s, but cannot get into them. Which i understand, cause its so punishing to fail them. And my RIO is only 2k on hunter cause i cannot get into groups.

My guild does not run keys this low. So hard to not pug them.

With my resto shaman i do not have these issues. Im so wanted, i can pick and choose what group i join. So i can pick the best looking groups, and as the healer. I can control the run much better than a dps.

If a tank or healer suck, you are screwed. If a dps suck, well hopefully the two others can carry.

I hate M+. I find myself standing in Dornogal running circles cause i have nothing to do. I do not want to pug mythics. Nor are there any guild mythics goin on…

So im just skinning some beasts and jumping around in Dornogal. Being bored, cause i cannot progress without the pain of mythics queue minigame. Spending 1 hour to get accepted, only for the group to break down…

Or run my own key, and the group falls apart…

Nah. Im not pugging, i refuse. And no guild runs at these key levels.

So i suspect either i hold out till S2. So i wont be left behind and can gear up with everyone else. Or i quit cause im bored cause i cannot progress.

I dont want to quit my guild for a noobie guild either…

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I think mythics that you need to progress ingame content should be queue-able and under the same protections other systems have agains trolling, bad behavior etc.

But that means it would altso have to be less challenging.

Keys should not deplete. But rather require more runs to upgrade if failed a lot.

I find myself in a position where i started late, and lagged behind everyone else in gear.
With my resto shaman i had no problem getting into groups and gear up and catch up with people.

However my hunter is not wanted at all. Only people who take him are desperate for bloodlust. Most of my gear is 619 and cannot be upgraded with runed anymore. And guilded is gatekept in 8s. I get 30 from killing council and queen each week. But with 30 gilded a week, upgrading yourself to handle mythic raids takes a LONG time.

So my hunter is in a funny place where he lacks RIO to do 8s, but outgears 7s. I hate wasting my time, so farming 7s just for rio is pretty much out of the question. Im an old player, before RIO existed.

My neighbor pushes high keys too. I would never want to do this, i hate even lower mythics with a passion. Id know i hate my life pushing high ones.

And hes like “Enh shammy in every group” most utility ingame and highest dps ingame. Nobrainer. Aoe stun, aoe knockup, interupt, bloodlust.

My hunter can bring an aoe knockup aswell, but if i want to aoe stun i need to bind and displace mobs. Ive taken flak from tanks before for doing it. Takes alot more to setup than dropping the capacitor totem thats for sure.

My interupt is almost twice as long CD as the shamans. And my dps is lower.

So why would anyone take a BM hunter over an enh shammy? Either cause they are drunk or dont know better. Thus maybe why ive been getting so bad groups on hunter, people who dont know better pick me. And i end up in horrible runs pretty consistent on it.

I agree that the time stolen from you, is more than enough punishment. Its WAY to punishing atm. And there needs to be a bigger reward for finishing a key, even if its not timed. That with a punishment for leaving i think would fix alot.

With my resto shammy, i have the best runs. Cause im the healer i can control alot of things, and fix peoples mistakes. But as the unwanted hunter, i end up in the groups that will take me. Not the groups i want into. With my shammy i can pick and chose what groups to join. Cause im always instant accepted.

1 Like