Mythic Tindral ... oh man

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

Hello everyone,

I would like to ask you about your personal opinion about the Mythic Tindral encounter.

ATM my guid is at around 30% after 300+ pulls and I don’t feel that I even progress this boss anymore. And it’s not even the last one!

I can’t remember the boss with worse design in my history of raiding (Mythic Fallen Avatar is close opponent). There are too many personal responsibles and mistakes that can wipe whole raid completely in a second. Every evening when I am about to start another Mytic Tindral progress raid I am no longer excited about it and I feel like I am starting my second work shift of the day - and not the job you enjoy. I am pretty sure that I am not the only one feeling this way as more and more of my guildmates stop stowing on the raid. I am afraid that this boss may kill my guild…

After achieving CE for many many years I am starting to believe that this will be the tier where I will not be able to defeat the last boss. This feeling makes me wanna stop playing the game completely becasue raiding is my main activity and I see no point in doing it knowing I will not be able to achieve the final goal.

What is your opinion about this encounter?

2

It’s hard but nothing people can’t manage by this point. The issue with the fight is that it tests everyone every pull, nobody can coast so you’re always as a team as weak as your weakest player.

Because of the history of the boss though I feel like a lot of people just refuse to engage with the fight in a productive way, feeling like because of the state the boss was in until January they’re owed the fact it should just fall over as some sort of apology.

3

Bosses like this are always tough. By the time your weakest players have “got it” you start to lose consistency because staying focussed is hard. Probably more so these days because a distraction is just a notification away.

I sympathize but I don’t have a solution!

4

This Boss have already destroyed sucessfully 3 multi CE Teams (all prog. ± 400 pulls) on our Realm.
So if the job of a Boss is to Kill Raids he is employe of the Year.
(I know 3 Players who quit Suscripiton based on this Boss)

5

Nope the fight is awesome tbh. The problem is why most guilds wipes abd keeps wiping this boss asks alot of personal succes everyone needs to do their job. Noone can carry u. So its an awesome boss well made.

6

erm… and you say so because you have 0 pulls on it on mythic. I like this case.

7

And that is the #1 reason I dont do Mythic raid.

Because that antiquated system of gaming was fun in 2004, but has not changed a single bit since then.

If people want to behave as if Mythic raiding was a M+, then change the whole raiding paradigm to that. With infinitely scalable systems where everyone gets to clear the bosses, but the catch is to see who does it at a higher “level”.

But if you want to keep the system as is, with difficulty per boss, its INEVITABLE that most Mythic raiding guilds will get stuck wiping 400 times on 1 boss for months at a time until the new season comes.

Those guilds DB on Tindral. Others on 5th boss (whatever its called). Others on Smolderon.

Not everyone can CE consistently, actually, most dont. And most disband. Because nobody likes to accept the inevitable: 400 wipes is what it takes to raid Mythic. And the fact that you do raid Mythic is not an automatic guarantee to get CE.

So… proposition time:

How about we turn heroic raids into heroic + ? :slight_smile: Cant kill Tindral? No problem.

Instead of waiting for Daddy Blizz to nerf it for you simps out there, instead just downgrade it 1 level (-5% live and -%5 damage) and try again. Lets see who kills it with the most “level”.

Also, the advantage this has is that the RTWF race does not end 1 week into the patch. It will last for ever, until the next season. :slight_smile:

Also, you eliminate the problem of 20 people roster. You can leave it flex. Some bosses will be easier, some harder. But in an infinitely scalable system, even if you show up with the ideal comp with ideal # of players, just like M+, you will eventually get 1-shot.

8

This is not an advantage.

9

Why not? You could even do regular e-sport competitions. Like MDI.

10

I dont like raiding at all, but i remember when i had the time and it was the only thing to do in pve progress some bosses and the reliance to every single player drove me crazy at times, and still does today when i Farm hc stuff pug. When we wouldnt progress i stopped raiding or just played an alt for the rest of the tier. I can imagine it causes many disbands

11

Meanwhile, by the time HoF is full, 4,000 players have killed every mythic boss and achieved CE. As cross realm opens, and the nerfs continue, the kills come faster.

It isn’t. Mythic raiding is as much like M+ as a marathon is like a 5k club run. The majority of club runners never run a marathon, but they don’t ask for marathons to be done away with or “made more like club runs”.

Of course some mythic raid guilds disband during the tier when they start to struggle, but many of the raiders in those guilds only came together for this raid. The kind of guilds where all the raiders are friends who do a lot of other activities in WoW (and maybe other games), and chat on discord when they’re not raiding, as well as aim for CE are few and far between.

It isn’t like the raid is destroying long-established raid teams.

12

I get ya. But its all philosophy.

How many players have not killed Fyrak yet. How many players have not killed Tindral yet?

I don’t have to see the statistic. I know its > than 4000. Its been like that in every… single… raid since Vanilla.

What do those people do then during a whole raid patch? Just… not raid? Abandon?

I mean… you can throw out all the statistics you want. But there will ALWAYS be more people that raid mythic with out CE than with it.

And that is the center point of my argument. :slight_smile:

So I ask again. What will all those people do until S4? Keep wiping to the same boss I guess right? :slight_smile: Or maybe… wait for Daddy Blizz to nerf the boss so they can kill it? Lame.

Even “friends and family” guilds cant take something like that for months. What they do is stop raiding, and take a break. And then come back next patch. Thats what happens in reality. :slight_smile:

13

And what’s your problem with all this, exactly?

Mythic raiders fall into a few groups:

  1. RWF competitors.

  2. Those who aim for HoF, realm first (or high ranking), etc.

  3. Those who aim for CE and persevere until they get there or the season ends.

  4. Those who would like to get CE, but are happy to get as far as they can before they get burned out.

  5. Those who are just doing as many bosses as they can comfortably do for fun.

  6. Those who just do 2 (or 3) bosses for a vault slot each week.

The above should answer your questions. People go into mythic raiding with a variety of different goals. It isn’t a choice of CE or “failure”.

Mythic plus is much the same when you think about it. People play at all levels. The majority of people who do keys aren’t looking to “win” the M+ game (which would be top 0.1%, I guess). They just aim to do what they feel is achievable, and also fun. Mythic raiders are no different.

14

What are you going to do for the next 4 months?

Do the same dungeons again and again for little or no score almost all the time? Lame!

Different people like different things, the solution to the non-existent problem isn’t to make it more like something you happen to like.

1 Like
15

No problem. My claim is that 2, 3, 4 implies lots of wiping. More often than not, those players become optino 4.

Players #5 are those who accept it, and just stop before the boss that will keep them wiping all season.

My point is:

My point is that players 2 to 5 none achieve CE. All don’t achieve it (voluntarily or not) because wiping is an antiquated way to play. Never said they “failed”.

Nobody that does M+ wants to “win”.

What im saying, is that whatever key level you choose 15, 17, 18 or whatever… you will not spend 3 months just wiping there. You can always play 1 level under. No need to quit.

In raid the alternative to Tindal (OPs complaint) is Tindral HC. And you can agree with me that Tindral HC is a joke of a boss.

16

Not in my experience, no. We’ve had 400+ wipes on a single boss, and when our raid lead asked if we wanted to stop, most of the group were adamant that they didn’t because we wanted to kill the [banned word].

Options 2 and 3 don’t “become” option 4. If they’re option 4, it’s because they were always option 4.

HoF is full, so I’d dispute that point. But maybe it’s a typo.

Either way your point makes no sense. How is players who are happy to not get CE not getting CE some kind of failure of mythic raid?

The OP is complaining that the second to last boss in the last raid of the tier - the boss that should be one of the most difficult bosses of the two year expansion - is… well, difficult. Of course it’s difficult. It’s meant to be.

The hard bosses are a test of mental fortitude as much as anything. They’re a test of the group’s ability to remain focused through wipe after wipe after wipe. They’re a test of their ability to keep it together after all those wipes when the boss is at 5%, there’s a ton of damage going out and mechanics to deal with, and the hope and excitement that this might finally be the kill risks sabotaging them. They’re a test of their ability to pick themselves back up after wiping at 0.5% (with 400 previous wipes), knowing that they just “failed” and they have to start the fight again and do everything perfectly to get back to where they were.

I enjoy that kind of challenge, and that’s why I find mythic raiding fun. I don’t want it to be easy.

17

Look… you focus too much on me. As if im saying that people fail the raid somehow if they dont kill Fyrakk.

Its far from that.

What I am saying, is that while your guild after 400+ wipes is still there motivated… well… most of the other guilds I know are in the state the OP is.

Is that in any way a failure from the player? NO. Im not saying that.

Its a failure from the system itself that creates these situations where people simply stop after XXX wipes. And that is what im focusing on.

Not on your specific guild.

So my idea is that maybe… maybe we can use a different metric to progression than wipes. Still progression, but maybe… something other than wipes.

I can give you an M+ equivalent. I WANT people to push keys (to the level they feel comfortable). And if they have an issue with depletes… then maybe we should look at the key depletion system.

Or… people simply dont play on Bolstering weeks. I WANT people to play. So maybe… change Bolstering?

Thats the general idea.

18

No, it isn’t. It’s evidence that some people are simply not equipped to handle late mythic bosses. As I said in my post above, it takes a certain mindset to be able to handle progression (and the hundreds of wipes that it involves). Not everyone has that mindset, or wants to develop it, and that’s fine.

There are a lot of things to do in WoW. Some people enjoy some things, other people enjoy others. I doubt anyone could name a single person who enjoys doing everything, at every level.

If people don’t enjoy the challenge of overcoming a boss fight that’s difficult enough to lead to a few hundred wipes, THEY DON’T HAVE TO DO IT. Why is that so difficult to understand? Why do you want to change content that people enjoy into something they don’t enjoy for the sake of people who aren’t doing it?

19

I proposed Heroic +.

Not to change mythic. :slight_smile: Because I agree with your statement. :slight_smile:

There. :slight_smile: Quoted.

For those of us that don’t want to sit in the following alternatives: Either (A) wipe 400 times on a boss… OR (B) go to the same heroic boss and kill it by accident.

20

Then you started talking about RWF going on indefinitely, so you obviously weren’t talking exclusively about HC.

Honestly, I think they should just make HC more difficult so the gap between it and mythic isn’t so big.