New player, forced to reroll from Sub Rogue for PvE?

Classes Rogue
1

Hello my stealthed brothers and sisters,

Started playing WoW for the first time a month ago, currently only have 5 days at max level as a Subtlety Rogue. So take the rest of this with a grain of salt:

Currently 198 ilvl, and have gotten the flow of Sub down pretty good for a new player.
My main partner in crime a.k.a. my gf who is an experienced raider, is now asking me to swap class/spec due to low damage. I understand that Sub can be pretty harsh if you screw up, but more often than not I’m utilising my resources and CD’s to an okay level for my skill when compared to PoV’s on YT etc (been doing a lot of research).

However, my stats are waaay off when going for ilvl. Can get pretty decent stats if I sacrifice ~5 ilvl but Mastery is still at like 55% with Crit at 20%.
Will my DPS noticeably increase now that I’m starting to look more at stats rather than ilvl, and after crafting my legendary (combined with increased skill and experience). Or will the difference be negligible and I’ll just have to admit defeat and roll Outlaw / New class?

Also, I’ve always been more into PvP and really want this spec to work in both…

Sincerely, a sad man who just wants to do stealthy roguey stuff :frowning:

2

Ilvl > secondary stats generally for rogue, agi is very valuable and in most cases it’ll work out better that way. The simplest way to approach finding your bis gear is to sim whenever you get new loot really.

It might just be a case of practice or you can try assass its fairly straight forward for single target raid fights while being similar / close to sub stats. Its a melee unfriendly raid tier, you’re going to bite the bullet and unfortunatly in fights with alot of movement find that there is potential of you dropping / wasting dances if you’re not acquainted with the timing of mechanics

Legendaries do make the difference if you haven’t got the one you need.

3

sub is generally the best spec in pvp, though assa is also good.

in pve sub is definitely playable. it’s not great, but you can play it. i played it for mythic progress on the first 7 bosses, wasn’t until the last 2 that i felt like i had to switch to a different spec. i’m not huge on mythic+, but whenever i play sub in there it feels fine as well.

4

Sub is fine in m+ up until around keys 17-18 when you start to notice your dps drop off compared to other specs. Same is true in raids, I’m 6/10 mythic playing only sub and I have managed to top the dps a few lucky times, mainly due to lucky procs and my guildies slacking those runs though. As usually its me somewhere near the bottom and the druids, mages, wlks, etc at top. This entire patch sub rogue has been one of the weakest spec/classes so we can assume (and hope) that blizzard will buff us soon.

5

reason i really don’t like sub on the last 2 is the other spec’s niches come into play big time, which isn’t really the case beforehand. i never really felt like i was throwing by playing sub on any boss council or before.

i tried playing both assa and sub on mythic SLG and honestly it felt really silly, the fight has outlaw written all over it. on denathrius assa has felt really good due strong focus damage with vendetta, multi dotting important targets and the execute once we get to phase 3 seeing as it’s the hardest part of the fight.

6

You will need to simulate your gear on something like askmrrobot or raidbot to see which piece of gear is an actual upgrade.

Gearing in WoW is not as straightforward as you might think.

7

Hey,

Get Finality for PVE and Mark of the Master Assassin for PvP.

With Finality in PVE you can easily focus on Agility>Crit>Vers>mastery/haste for Raids and Agility>Crit>Mastery/vers>haste for Mythic+

Haste is decent for single target and therefore good for raiding, but garbage for AoE and thus also garbage for M+.

With Mark of the master assassin, which is also decent for M+ you can focus more on Versatility and Mastery instead of Crit.

If you look at my stats you’ll notice that I am “just” sitting at 51% mastery. Normally I think being around 50% mastery is quite healthy, but you’ll also notice that I have spent all my gems and enchants into crit. Note that I mainly focus on Mythic+.

You can perform absolutely fine in M+ as sub rogue, but it will be easier to do it as outlaw… much easier. However, if you play sub rogue well the DPS is rather similar to that of an outlaw rogue, the difference is where in the dungeon the damage is spread. On the other hand, Sub rogue requires a bit more control and timing if you want to do proper damage. These days I often do 6-7k DPS overall in most dungeons slightly below fire mages and boomies… but if I was number 1 DPS when doing my 19 and 20 keys it would be a problem, because it would mean that my dungeon partners wouldn’t know how to play their classes properly. You primarily bring a rogue for their utility, stuns and interrupts etc.

Unfortunately, sub rogue is falling behind in CN when compared to the other two speccs, due to our lack of cleave damage. However, if your goal is to do normal and/or heroic raids, you might as well stick to sub rogue in my opinion.

Edit: I took a look at your talents and unless you are doing PvP I would highly recommend “shadow focus” instead of subterfuge as long as you are sitting on below 12% haste or so. If I had 12-16% haste I would go nightstalker though. Marked for Death is also inferior to deeper stratagem in PVE imo, especially in AOE. Also, get celestial guidance on your other weapon. It’s dirt cheap.

Lastly, I see that you are NF and regarding Soulbinds you can use Korayn with ‘first strike’ for Mythic+ and Niya for Castle Nathria. Korayn is incredible good for Sub rogue in Mythic+, the 25% crit is really sick with Finality… Obviously there is no point to pick korayn if you are using Mark of the Master Assassin.

8

Hey, thank you for the thorough reply!

I’m able to craft Finality but saving up the gold to craft rank 3 directly due to cost benefits(?). For sure will try to make both of them as you said, just need the time!

My average dps lately in M+s has been pretty stable around 2.5k overall, obviously more if you only look at one segment with SB up. From my playtime and gear, would you call this lackluster?

I have been looking at Outlaw but honestly, having gear for 2 specs isn’t really within my reach atm, I’m currently diagnosed with burnout from work so WoW is supposed to be a break, not a farm/chore. Ideally I’d be happy with a “hybrid” set for both PvE/PvP and being in the middle of the pack, but being at the bottom however isn’t really fair to my teammates imo :[

The talents you saw are probably just my world roaming build, I find subterfuge and MfD really usefull when going through single trashmobs with running time inbetween to remove the need for dance pops, saving them for meatier things. I also had Cel. Guidance on my 2nd but just swapped it for better ilvl (I’m finding it REALLY hard to get up-to-date weapons, wth is this?).

My mythic talents are: 1-3-2-2-3-3-1

Regarding Korayn, I’ve been looking at that last one but is it worth dropping say Stiletto Staccato for, since I belive it’s an endurance conduit linked to it?

9

You mean rank 4? Rank 3 is the biggest waste. Depending on the prices on your server I would recommend Rank 1 → rank 4 or rank 2 → rank 4

I have no clue. It was a long time ago since I played around ilvl 200. All I can say is that you should make sure your rotation is done correctly and knowing when to use what abilities. For instance:

  • you AOE on 4 or 5 targets and above using symbol of death+Shadow dance>shuriken storm>black powder>shuriken storm>black powder>etc…
  • Make sure you always have slice and dice up (unless you are doing 5+ target AOE, then you can let it drop).
  • Outside of shadow dance use Shuriken storm instead of backstab when there are 2 or more targets. 2 target = same damage as backstab, but 2 combo points instead of 1.
  • Take a closer look at your passive and make sure you understand how they work, e.g. deepening shadows, shadow techniques and find weakness and make sure you use them to your advantage.
  • If you are in shadow dance you use eviscerate on 4 combo point if you have 4 combo points. You don’t want to hit 6 combo points and ‘lose’ 1 combo point due to shadow techniques. In general, you never want to miss you out on any combo points and it is better to spend them on 4 or 5, rather than 6 and missout. Only time I ‘overcap’ combo points is when I want to make sure to a hit a 6 point rupture.
  • don’t enter shadow dance if you are too low on energy, you don’t want to be energy starved when doing shadow dance.
  • Lining up CDs such as shadow dance, symbol and shadow blades is always better since they buff eachother.
  • At the same time, don’t hold cool downs and use them frequently instead of waiting for some special occasion… As long as you make use of (e.g.) your 20 seconds of shadowblades it has been put to good use. The only thing you want to avoid is popping CDs and seeing them expire inbetween pulls.
  • Rupture deals more damage than Evis, but only if it ticks towards the end so don’t use it if you know somethign will die quick.
  • etc.

Yeah especially weapons are annoying to get indeed, you can always play around with assassination for raids at a later point… so stick to daggers.

Absolutely. In mythic+ you want to use the conduits deeper daggers and planned execution by the way. With Korayn you only have one option obviously, I would just go for the one with highest ilvl from those two. Personally I use planned execution, but I understand that deeper daggers might be better for M+. In raid with Niya I think you are safe to pick Planned execution + stiletto staccato.

I would recommend 2-3-2-2-1-3-1 for mythics+, that is:
premediation, shadow focus, deeper stratagem, cheat death, shot in the dark, enveloping shadow, master of shadows.

Premediation is a bit better in mythic+ as it is helping you to keep up SnD and thus also saves you combo points. It is good in M+ because you can restealth and shadowstrike between packs and you can even use Vanish as a way to increase the duration of your SnD, not to mention gaining you 4 instead of 2 combo points with that stealthed shadowstrike. In Raid you would use weaponmaster though. Cheat death is very good in mythic+, but in raid you may want to consider using elusiveness to help healers… depends on how often you die to mechanics I guess. Shot in the dark vs. Prey on the weak is more of a preference where I personally prefer a free cheap shot every shadow dance… but I might start messing around with prey on the weak now.

10

What pve content are we talking about? If it’s normal CN raiding then sub is absolutely fine. If you can get close to your sim dps then you will be hanging with people on single target fights.

If your damage is so atrocious that you’re being asked to reroll then you’re either in a serious mythic guild (you’re clearly not) or you’re underperforming badly compared to your sim dps (probably the case). Rerolling doesn’t help underperformance since you will just transfer that low dps to whichever class you reroll to.

If you aren’t simming then you should be doing that, both raid buff sims and target dummy sims without buffs. You should be able to reliably get within about 95% of your target dummy sim.

11

Wow, such a massive reply - thanks!

The priorities are pretty planted in my brain now, at least for my skill - just need more practice. As I’ve said I’ve been doing a looot of research, I guess just need to practice as well…

*Ouwlaw - started to farm piece by piece a new set so eventually gonna try that out now!

  • Conduits - I swapped out PE for SS, was that a wrong choice?
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Hey no problem, happy to help :slight_smile:

Yes for sub rogue this is very often case, not like many other classes that you can just pick up and blast away ^^

Honestly the conduits don’t make that much of a difference for rogues, but PE is the best conduit for single target and as an overall conduit. In raid you would play with Niya and therefore choose both PE and SS as your primary conduits.

In M+ you would pick korayn (unless you play with mark of master assassin) and pick either PE or deeper daggers for that one potency conduit slot.

What’s good with outlaw , because you want a lot of haste, is that the stat priority is fairly similar to assassination, so you can always try assassination if you have outlaw gear… except for the weapons of course.

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