Frostscythe should be changed to be an execute on a 15-30 second cd
just make it so you press it big damage then you get a buff that makes your Frost Strike and Obliterate now deal more damage based on your critical strike %.
as for Glacial Advance change this so after you have consumed 5-15 stacks of Rime Howling Blast procs morph Howling Blast in to Glacial Advance blasting all enemies in front of you for massive damage also granting 5 stacks of Razorice debuff at the target.
Also i would love to have a end row talent that replaces Raise Dead Ghoul for a summon Lich, you open a Deathgate from Ebon Hold were a powerfull Lich emerges out from the Deathgate.
This should work like the Elemental Shamans Storm Elemental a powerfull temporary minion that do a few things whit during it’s duration,
it should buff DK whit Frost Armor increasing the Frost DK’s armor and enemy that attacks the DK has their haste reduced by 1% stacking up to 5-10 stacks
it also cast Frost Bolts at the enemy slowing them for 50% this also buffs the DK’s next Rime proc Howling Blast by x amount of damage.
Next is Frost Bomb a 1 use cd it cast when you summen the Lich this deals a smal portion of damage but if the primary target dies it causes another explosion around the dead target of the debuff dealing massive damage if the target gets killed.
last skill Shadowfrost fissure the Lich will drop tiny puddle under the unsuspecting target if this goes of under the enemy target it deals a massive amount of damage also leaving a debuff on them increasing the damage they take by 1% stacking up to 5 shadowfrost Fissure has a 5-10 second CD
I am a little confused, i just read upon ret talents and the radiant and holystrike effects do all scale of your physical damage and holy damage increases, and picks the one that does the most damage, but nothing is wasted, mind you i read this of a few posts from other people, and they seemed pretty knowledgeable. Example being if target has high armor, holystrike deals holy damage. i use anti magic shell, it does physical completely bypassing it (yay, im so happy for that detail)
it also scales of the mastery, compared to DK abilites that deal shadow damage frost mastery does nothing to them.
i had little idea how paladin talents worked since i tried it out briefly in legion, but i will say a first glance of abilities and talents makes me annoyed if yo are complaining about the non issue of having multiple spell schools that does not scale. thats what Death knights have, although not in a big scale, but it IS there.
of course i do not know how paladins play in content, but i am telling you this, that it is taking all of my willpower to not burst out in anger again after seeing people come to my forum and tell me that i should not complain because i have the ever powerful rime proc and 2% strenght scaling on pillar when the avenging wrath talent crusade does the same BUT for haste AND strenght AND lasts for 36 seconds with 2 min cooldown AND does it for 3% to boot. Or a 28 second regular avenging wrath with 1 min cooldown. What the prevoious poster that summoned you here do not realize is how obliteration works, how pillar of frost works.
one minute base cooldown, that can be reduced by 1 sec every time your frost strike or obliterate crits, so uptime is a little more generous, BUT it lasts for 12 seconds (usedto be 10, but each rune spent increased duration instead of 2% strenght). we can also cause a lingering effect that gives us 20% strenght after pillar fades for…8 seconds i think? increased by every crit you did in pillar window.
the issue is that if you cannot “invest” in pillar, pillar is sub par and will ruin your damage, in PvE and PvP. you pop it. now you MUST stick to the target, and god forbid if you have low haste because then–i have not even explained how obliteration works yet, apologies. obliteration works like this: you use pillar of frost, each frost strike or howling blast cast(the howling blast needs to be empowered by rime, rime procs come of obliterate uses) will now grant a killing machine proc, killing machine procs makes our obliterates frost damage and auto crit, the gameplay is that you must stick to the target, not get cced, knockback or target moves away PvP and PvE, and if you could not “invest” in pillar of frost like that the after effects will not be good either. half of the global cooldown you do in pillar window is used to enable killing machine, that actually does the things we want.
given how i see how avenging wrath:crusade works…imagine if you had a 12 second window to stack that effect to 10 stacks AND you could only gain stacks if templars verdict critted, no other ability would build stacks AND to get templars to crit, you must use crusader strike to proc that free crit, two globals, im Melee, inside a very tight window, with low haste or lag perhaps.
i am fully aware that avenging wrath:crusade is mostly melee range to build it’s stacks, but two templars verdicts and you are at 6 stacks already, with… 5 seconds passed? of the insane 36 second duration. Granted, its still building stacks, but it is miles away from the convoluted garbage we have to do with pillar of frost.
…and here i am ranting again at someone new, apologies. I am just so tired of it all, especially after having done a few deep dives into most of the other classes talent treest and passives.
I was going to tag the one that brought you here, but i decided against it, if they see this they see this.
No, the idea what most thought it would do is what you describe but in practice its the opposite. If a target has AMS its treated like magic dmg and is absorbed, if the target has BoP its treated like physical and target is immune. The only thing it bypasses is armor.
Yes it scales with mastery but the only attack that isent magical from the start is Crusader Strike, everything else already does Holy dmg (pre rework Blade of Justice was physical aswell). So its worse then just holy dmg. Radiant dmg is a nothing burger, its holy/fire magic aka just magic.
Let me ask you this, whats the point of an attack that bypasses physical/magical immunity/absorb in a PvE setting? Is there any encounter today or even in the past this would even be remotly usefull on? They wont make encounters where something this neiche would be usefull nor would they balance a class tree rotation for PvP other then adding a debuff or maybe a dispell protection.
And as for pvp we lack sooooo many things
Instant gapcloser
Propper slow
Root
Debuff
Dispell protection
Selfhealing that doesnt lower dmg output by nearly 80% and isent nerfed by 50% in a pvp setting while also costing a large portion of mana. Whats the point of holy power if it costs mana aswell?
All of the above can be presumed to be at the cost of having bubble but that kinda flies out the window as an excuse when there are classes that has a counter for it. The cost is becoming far to heavy expansion after expansion of not getting anything that should count as a basic tool that most other melees has while they pump out new classes left and right that has nearly all of the above day one (DKs included). And not counting DKs all of the other new classes are extreamly mobile.
So instead of giving us basic tools that everyone else has this is what they spent time on, splitting holy dmg into sub categories and i bet you the “hero talents” in TWW will expand on just that! Holy strike for Ret/Prot and Radiant for Ret/Holy.
And this is whats driving me insane, the ONLY change is on our dmg. There is no gameplay change, ever!
What do Rets do in combat? Run to target and hit it! Its very blunt, simple, predictable and most of all vissualy telling and counterable!
It mostly depends on the targets skill to avoid the paladin, dispell that freedom, deff CDs/CC when wings are up, if possible dispell the bubble, otherwise “deep breath”
stealth/cloak/evi/iceblock/invisible/AMS/Monk bubble/priest bubble/leap/fly away etc etc.
Then pushbacks aswell, most other melee have a counter for that like shadowstep, leap, charge, rush, DG etc and most of them works even when pushed over a cliff.
Its never fun to look on how a Ret playes, its never impressive. What can most of them even show, big hits? When i used to look in pvp vids way back mages looked extreamly skillfull when they played well while every single Ret vid was mainly just a show of big hits and the use of Engi boosts and granades, so an engineer that happened to be ret.
Havent looked at those kinds of vids for well over a decade but have a vague feeling nothing has changed.
For me, your issues are a non issues. They are just about scaling? DPS window? Clunky rotation? Ive had all of those before as ret (please do try a ret in Cata when it comes) and some of them pressists today. My main issues with Ret is its very stagnant state, nothing new is actually added to the spec. The only thing they have done for Ret since WotlK is adding a functioning rotation that they change up every once in a while, everything else we have has been there since vanilla (well rebuke was added in cata) while losing tools like cleanse magic/emancipate/blessings etc.
Then that is a blatant bug or stupid feature if you ask me, and should not work like that, ill give you that.
if you think that paladin’s have the issue of one attack not getting mastery scaling then you are mistaken, DK damage is very underwhelming outside of pillar burst window thanks to our obliterate being pure physical and normal killing machine procs works on getting auto attack crits, to THEN enable a frost damage obliterate.
Neither do DK’s, we have some speed increased combined with out strong slows that is true.
if they removed hand of hindrance thats sad, ill give you that.
for consideration, Should paladins have a root?
what do you mean by this?
purge/dispel magic has always been a menace, that is true.
let me tell you of the tale of death strike, DK’s primary form of self healing, after the start of BFA shattered our class the only thing that stood firm was death strike, it then got progressively nerfed in PvP situations into laughuable levels, and especially during the end of BFA’s insane corruption patch where you could stack ridicoulous amounts of versa, Death strike has never been restored to a normal state in PvP since then.
nearly all of our kit and damage in PvP on frost is severely reduced aswell, insane numbers like 50% anbd 80% on several abilities, all from legion. still in effect.
The increasing ability for a few classes to break DS is annoying, that i can understand, the same way how warlocks can completely say “no” to a frost DK’s burst window by casting amplified curse of weakness to make the DK unable to crit for 12 seconds, 12 seconds being the exact time of our burst window.
DO NOT lump in death knight with the ample display if other classes that clearly is more loved and better designed.
Seems we are both in hell, your “rework” made things worse, and we have not had anything for 8 years, funny how that works.
I can replace the word “ret” here with Frost DK, and it would be exactly the same, but i WILL NOT cede my point that you have it better with avenging wrath burst window, even if you may never be able to understand because playing a Frost DK long enough to see how it works will not happen, i dont blame you for that.
i will say the same again, we have the same problem, within our burst window that is, even if we have spammable slows and ways to somewhat move, i will explain why. You pop pillar, then you need to spend a GCD on frost strike to ENABLE killing machine, target has now Cced you, vanished, leapt away, slowed you, or just counterbursts you because doing anything else with your globals in our extremely short burst window makes it very weak, not that death striking will actually work nowadays anyway.
i dont know why you are complaining against defensice spells that are designed to soak damage, you want to dispell those you need a shaman to purge them.
If we remember to push deaths advance we can avoid knockoffs and knockbackls, i will give you that.
i can see why the PvP might be worse now after the botched rework, but dont tell me savix talents are unskilled or unimpressive, and mages being OP is always the case in that manner
my respect for you has now dropped to the level of the person that summoned you here, you know NOTHING of DK over the years, same way that i will be honest and say that i dont know much of paladin after BC up to start of legion where i played it briefly, then stopped mid legion, i know what we have lost since Wrath, i know of the asinine botched transition form Legion into BFA that made us pathetic and boring to play, not to mention weak in many aspects. i wonder if me trying to explain just how the pillar of frost obliteration window works is a wasted effort, or how stupid it is to have a dead talent called frostscythe that got completely overlooked by the stupid ARDENWEALD covenant ability in SL that makes obliterate cleave if you and the mobs stand in it, that it was made baseline shows extreme out of touch by designers, period, but you wont ever understand why or what impact it had, it’s mere existance causes alot of our other AOE damage to be ruined to make up for the insane damage it can do, toxic design in a nutshell, everything you feel about pala we feel about DK, as i believe both of our classes are in similar spots, yet i am willing to bet money that they will finish your class, like they did shadow priests, and We will get nothing save for idiotic hero talents.
i WANT to be proven wrong, but The War Within will show it.
Ok you clearly arent seeing my issue here, its that they spent time on creating something new that in the end is totaly meaningless, even if it did work as was promoted. It adds nothing to the gameplay.
Instead if fixing the issues you listed DKs were to get 2 new types of shadow/frost dmg that you need to choose what to spec into and they change nothing of your rotation, just that one of them adds direct dmg and other adds DoT dmg. Nothing more, thats what Ret rework was.
Not sure what to call Death Grip and slappy hands if not an instant gap closer. Tho i give you the lack of it in a PvE enviorment.
They did and it had a 15 sec CD, it was just outright bad in every PvP scenario because everyone now has a slow removal (aka minifreedom)
While lacking everything else? Yes!
Let me tell you the tale of Justicars Vengance, a talent that came in Legion that would deal both dmg and selfhealing, it did neither well. They shoved it as a talent in every single expansion since and has never been taken by anyone ever (hyperbole) but was used for a single month when we got our “rework” when everything was overscaled on dmg and selfhealing, thats it. And they will keep shoving in that godforsaken talent til end of time!
Yes we have better burst, thats the one point ill give you but its far more obvious when a Ret bursts and when a Ret defends.
Again Deathgrip and slappy hands is a thing is it not? Spammable slow, ranged stun/silence etc while being immune to most magic CC on a fairly short CD.
Again, if you aint pushed over a cliff, deathgrip works just fine.
No its exactly the same, thats the issue! While mages of all specs can now Iceblock, barrier, double blink, alter time, blast wave, dragons breath, ring of frost etc they also get experimental pvp talents like icewall perfect for forcing a los between a dying target and their healer, hell even sheep that no longer heals its target!
What have Rets gotten over the years? The sun sheild i guess but its not the first sheild we have had over the years, its just the latest version that replaced sacred sheild. Pvp talents are just meh.
Never claimed i did nor do i care for whatever respect you lost. I just see this as some hollow grandstanding.
Should i gain or lose some feeling towards you for admiting this? No, i dont know you enough to have any feelings or opinion on how much i should respect you.
Yes it is, its like me going over how or why i think inquisition was for ret back in the day. Still i would gladly play the spec with it if i got a gapcloser to go with it!
Except pillar of frost obliteration window has been like this for 8 years, and remain so, our situation is not the same.
One is a talent that no one picks, like frostscythe like we have, another is a baseline very imporant self sustain healing ability that quite frankly does nothing in PvP due to the nerfs it has recieved, i am not getting thorugh to you, so this conversation is finished.
As ive said… JV has been in the game since legion, a talent that none takes but is here for the 4th expansion so 8 years.
Do you have a talent like Turn evil in your tree? Its still there even after the rework. It was fine when it was just a non talent thing to give flavour of what a paladin does but as talent its not fine. That just shows that they have nothing to give the class, they have no idea what to add so they fill the tree with nothing talents. Thats why our steed is still 3 points that many only take 1 point of because they are forced to take it to get wings.
How can it be very important self sustain that at the same time does nothing?
How i understand dont expect rework, tuning this expansion ? And after The WW comes out devs will sit with smug on their face thinking all is normal. But then they will need refix talent and hero talent trees… OMG at least 1.5 year of suffering
i am at a loss to respond to this, what part of “In PvP” do you not understand, it does it’s job in PvE as it always had. i am beginning to think that you, like the one that brought you here, argues in extremely bad faith. even i, a very “thorns out” person, have taken my time to reflect on my past brief playings with the paladin class, and read up on things now on it, and i will say that i understand why you are annoyed…
B U T
You do not even try to listen to what i have to say, you do even read what i type, or have a speck of an understanding of the things i am talking about. you have not even attempted to understand where i stand. that you even have to as the above quoted question baffles me, it is very important because it is our ONLY self healing ability that is actually worthwhile, it does its job in PvE but in PvP the nerfs it has recieved since legion has slowly been removed over time, but it is still laughably bad as a mainstay sustain in PvP.