No new city for Night elves - Bel'Ameth the Capital village

Community General Discussion
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Enjoyed that… the thing is i like my elves to have a little bit of savagery… but the degree of it was shown perfectly for an elf race in the sentinels and the demon hunters in WC3, and I think this needs the contrast in Thesmae night elves of the Highborne, balance druid/moon priestess type in their cities, and temples.

What I detest is night elves as just savage /forest hippies or night elves as just nightborne civilization types, - it’s the combo I was drawn to, these two sides in the same people, these contrasts.

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what i think is bad story whriting is that half the hordes killed the three then they are magically allowed inside the city not even a we will kill you guys back,

Jaina proudmoore killed all the blood elfs after the bombing of theramore in the Dalaran city like now its just barbie dolls and horde is Ken we don’t kill ken he’s to cute alliance you can kill of all characters no worries.

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Night Elf priestesses absolutely take after the clergy of the Dark Elf goddess Eilistraee, that’s for certain. Even more so or particularly since the Night Warrior transformation which likely refers to Eilistraee’s imagery of a sword dancer of the moon. Just wish they wouldn’t have taken it a bit too far with the “Love and Peace, all races pls smooch each other” feverdream of some of her extremist followers…

I also don’t like that Tyrande pretty much took Malfurion’s place within the dream and particularly in the raid. I still can’t understand and most certainly won’t applaude their decision to again shove him into the N/A corner just because they’re apparently not capable of writing that powerful couple of a strong minded moon priestess / blade dancer and her equally fierce druid husband. Seems like semi-ero simple structured teenage romances like the one between Thalyssra and Lor’themar are the only takes on elven relationships they can come up with. Disappointing.

In ideal, we would’ve seen Tyrande trying to commune with Elune from within the raid, requesting her guidance and strength once more to protect the tree they both created. Maybe even combined with a more stable night warrior transformation. At her side, Malfurion channelling the forces of nature together with Merithra in order to weaken the power of the enemy highlighting the special bond between the green dragonflight and the followers of their (former) leader Ysera’s foster son Cenarius. And speaking about Cenarius… I’ve never seen such little communication between a brother and his (foster) sister. Merithra didn’t have a single line with Cenarius, who didn’t do anything besides being a quest master and story-wise pretty much was the SL Baine of the patch if you leave Malfurion as competitors for the title out of it… The two characters, who besides the Emerald flight are most associated with the Emerald Dream in lore don’t get to do anything to save it. Makes no sense at all unlike you blame it to remarkable incompetence and / or a lack of effort, interest, mindfulness, you name it.

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I seem to clearly recall saying all night elves grew lethargic, did you perhaps miss this in your rebuttal? This includes the Shen’dralaar, who are night elves.

Every group took measures too.

No need to get angry. you have to prove where the lore says that arcane “constructs” are excclusively a blood elf thing.

The things is the games hows night elves using arcane constructs - it doesn’t matter if the lore doesn’t mention them if they game has shown them. our total understanding of any thing in Warcraft must come from the combined knowledge of all sources. we can’t only accept what’s written in the lore books because not everything about everyone is written, some of it is shown. And likewise we can’t just accept everything we are shown and ignore what is writtne, as what is written is often the vital piece of information that brings the context or provides the context to what we see.

both are important, and where one is silent but the other informs, that information on the one medium is still 100% valid even if it is absent form the other.

I would agree with you on many things as our past conversation has shown and I enjoy the discussions on the very minor disagreements on the much finer details, however you have lost me on this one. I can’t in good conscience agree that arcane constructs are purely a blood elf thing when we see the night elves groups using them completely independent of the blood elves. and as such are not the best choice for Thalassian and night elf distinctions.

667

Glad we’re on the same page here, it is so weird. And it alarms me too because I don’t think the current writers are viewing the night elves like they were originally presented.

The dichotomy of the dark elf and forest elf sides seems to be all muddled -and how could they think that Tyrnade can’t show up as a high priestess, wielding her powers effectively alongside her husband.

But they are getting better at doing lore conversations, but seem to be missing many of the relevant ones - like your meritha/cenarius one and Cenarius/ysera conversation…

We did get a Cenarius/ysera one, despite it all being so pointless. It was just an excuse to remove him so that the lady Elf would be queen of all the night elves - and so necessitates turning her into a druid priestess - which is just nonsense, because druids are kinda like priests of nature and she is not a priestess of nature - but then they’ve been subtley turning Elune into a nature goddess.

Gone are the well of eternity, arcane references, and and now all we get is nature and trees. If they are pulling towards tyrande, wihch they should, then they soudlbe puling towards the dark elf - arcane focused half, which is about time, to balnace out the excessive foocus on the forest elf druidic side - in game at least, but no, they’d rather turn them all green - forgetting their made their skin purple - the colour oft he arcane, and their eyes silver, also the colour of hte arcane in purer form of starlight - all thier natural colours are arcane centred.

clearly they are not forest elves by nature, but dark elves instead with a forest elf half. but with these decisions it looks to be a lot of pushing into the forest elf mould, with very little display of hte rest of the night elves

668

It’s not documented that all night elves became lethargic. It is only stated that the Shen’dralar did and they needed a solution. Said solution was fel magic from Immol’thar.

The first line of their history is:
" **Arcane golems** or crystal golems are hulking, magically-powered robotic constructs found mainly in blood elf territories. They act as peacekeepers, defenders, and sometimes public announcers. The golems returned to prominence in Silvermoon some years after Scourge invasion of Quel'Thalas Their physical build boasts a number of different color schemes depending on the model. The blood elves have put them to the most use, generally using a red-and-gold variant, though also have vermilion and altered fel golem versions in their arsenal."

Badly and embarrassingly…so, remove the bad and just keep that part of the lore with the Thalassian Elves, High Elves and Blood Elves and have the Shen’dralar do something else.

Use them badly whilst the Blood Elves use them effectively.

This is all fake justification for headcanon. I don’t deal in headcanon nor feelings. I care about what is straight up factual.

I don’t really have time for people who blabber on about “muh feeling is…” Well, your feeling is just your feeling. It’s not something that is fact nor something I have any interest in engaging with.

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Is this thread still on going? Bloody hell!

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All they say is those particular type of arcane golems are found mainly in blood elf territories, it doesn’t say they invented them, nor that they are exclusive to them. And the game has shown us night elves with them… so how can you possibly say they are ONLY a blood elf thing?

This is what exclusive means.

Also mainly could be talking about regionally. So in the eastern kingdoms , or northern eastern kingdoms they are mainly in blood elf territories.

either way none of this means they are exclusive to blood elves, and you can’t possibly assume this if you them employed by night elven kind.

Also why are you so hung up on this?

Go read the Sundering - volume 3 of the Well of Eternity. Lethargy are one of the effects of arcane addiction experienced when you grow through a drought, this is why the blood elves get them to. You hear the lore talk about the subsequent lethargy that overcame the Highborne - referring to night elf kind AFTER the sundering and before each group took measures as far as I recall., it has never been exclusive to the Shen’dralar - and is associated with being cut off from the arcane that I recall

Besides, what point are you trying to make about the lethargy of the Highborne anyway? it’s not a good thing or useful thing for sure.

You mean the one made by clever Ambersill, one of the returned Highborne who’d taken a 10k year break from the arcane and returned to her arts when the Shen’dralar started recruited, like quite a few of the ones we fight in Azshara zone… she’s only a few weeks back into the arcane, , it woudl be a different story now.

Besides there is so much information unknown, it could be that she could have easily defended the construct and prevented hacking if she were alive, we , i.e the horde hero, kill her first before sabotaging the construct.
2. The construct is only used as a teaching tool, it is likely that she was not or had not safeguarded it properly for combat and was not expecting to be caught up in a war for the zone - i mean she has young students, new to the arcane being taught. - it shows you that this wasn’t a military camp o nor did they have weapons, also she may have been very confident she could have handled anything that came her away. She didn’t.

  1. Then there are the constructs in Suramar too, and they aren’t hackable either

Both of these indicate that night elves have used constructs from before the sundering, and long before the high elf existed, the creation of them comes from this era of the elves, and this is where the high , then blood elves get this knowledge from, like they get 99% of their arcane knowledge from their elven ancestry - which is night elven.

In this came I still can’t see how you can make claims this is exclusively a blood elf thing, I can accept mainly a blood elf thing, because while we see night elves using them, we don’t have to kill as many in Suramar as we do in Silvermoon.

and yes, constructs destroyed can be rebuilt. So saying they were destroyed means nothing. I do not expect the ones destroyed in Silvermoon, would now be perma destroyed, I suspect they’d be repaired or new ones built. same with the Shen’dralar and the nightborne…

in the instance in Azshara yes, but that’s a one off - and there are mitigating circumstances you cannot expect to be repeated.

  1. And yet the ones we destroy in Silvermoon are all malfunctioning too, they failed too -so does that mean the blood elves stopped using them? I don’t know, I would not assume so.

Being destroyed doesn’t necessarily mean they are worthless and will never be used, being hackable because you haven’t updated them either doesn’t mean they can’t be updated and have other functions. - I mean the blood elf mentioned that they stopped using arcane golems long time ago because of their security risk, yet, they are used in Tbc - so either a lore plot hole, or he is referring to how it is being used.

He doesn’t seem aware of why the Highborne is using the construct, just that he can exploit it.

Anyway, many of these cataclysm quests are hated by night elf fans because of how consistently across the board, they make the night elves look weak and the horde look super strong, we know blizzard was pushing the horde is great narrative heavily back then.

You don’t seem to be dealing in fact here either, you can’t possibly read “mainly” used and expect me to interpret it as “exclusively” used, because your headcanon decides it is, the that’s not how information works.

At leas tin this matter you are mistaken and incorrect good sir. And you should review the evidence given.

you dismiss the evidence of night elven constructs as inconsequential, but they are there, you are the one that decides they don’t count because they are hackable and we can destroy them in quests and adventuring but apply a different rule to the blood elf ones we can also destroy and do destroy in quests. nothing in the lore says they don’t or can’t make more or won’t either,

But the mere fact they are around in game is clear indication that they are not exclusive to blood elves and this good man is why I am not in agreement with you on this particular matter and have very good reason not to be.

I think perhaps we disagree on this also because we have different expectations of the elven groups. I don’t expect them to be totally unique to each other. And so don’t expect night elves to be say, feral elves and blood elves magical elves (that’s for a different race not an elven race), nor night elves to be say nature and blood elves to be arcane elves (like the more DnD minded players use to that franchise, tend to gravitate towards) or if they have arcane, then the type is totally different, I expect a lot of overlap because they are elves where the smaller community (blood elves) come directly from a much larger and broader original one (night elves). So I expect some distinctive differences, which are enough, but not that many either.

I also expect night elves to have a lot more going on, wider range, they are far older, and bigger, so this make sense they would have degrees in nature and arcnae the blood elves simply do not have yet having lost/forgotten a lot - which the lore says about them.

The biggest distinctions between the two are things like nocturnal vs dirurnal, immortal or very ancient vs more recent, their own entire thing vs mixed with humans, ancient land vs current (or modern) land - also the way they do arcane and nature is different, even if the disciplines themselves are essentially no different.

The way their communities are spared, and operate are also different, night elves have a much larger nature component, while the blood elves the arcnae is very much a core part of society whereas in night elves it is exclusively in the Highborne caste/faction as a ting for mages. meanwhile night elevens priesthood and druid orders use arcane spells, but the blood elves priests and botanists do not also indicating how much further deeply the arcane is entrenched and connected in the older night elven group even though it doesn’t have a central role currently in the main society like it does.

these are the sort of nuanced differences, some very obvious - like nocturnal, politics (i.e. horde or alliance) and style of governance (monarchy vs priesthood led). This lends to visual and aesthetic differences, but easily seen in game as well as character and personality differences you’d have to read the lore and listen to conversations in game to detect.

Unlike a lot of fans, who think the differences between night elves and blood elves also includes night elves living in wooden homes while blood elves live in places - again that’s more akin to a different race, truth night elven palaces and cities do exist, it’s just that lorewise, most of them are in total ruin, with one in semi ruin (currently been repaired or sought to being repaired led by Estulan) and one pristine - ie. Suramar. The rest destroyed. The most recent being Darnassus, but the others were destroyed 10,000 years ago.

and because night elves didn’t build new cities during the Long vigil they chose instead to hunt demons and make sure the legion could return, it means that most of their more current homes would be very simple affairs, until they ended the long vigil.

This is a significant difference between the two but also has it’s nuances. it’s not a simple case as night elves don’t do cities but blood elves do - rather a more manageable difference is night elves would have a night city, whiles blood elves a sun city - despite the irony of the name Silvermoon. A name which hearkens to their kaldorei roots.

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THere are so many dimensions to them too. they also have that moon/star thing which can have some stunning imagery and visualisations.

I was so captured by the star calling Moon priestesses, and was delighted to see them add that to the druid class on concept because it brought home that this was a facet of the night elven race. We later saw mages in Suramar and the Nighthold also use star/moon magic - confirming that they all did.

Expanding this concept is a worthy thing i feel, it helps make the night elves unique around the stars and moon and night - something their in game visual imagery and presentation has sorely lacked , exchanged for green forests, day time visuals which fit a druid class, but not a night race.

They need to seriously go back and read the words they wrote about the race. it’s all there in the lore, but it isn’t translating to the game.

And despite hte above, i didn’t like that night elf priests had little of the night and star powers they wield in lore and in warcraft 3 - and it was bad that players didn’t have it, but worse that NPC priestesses were almost never shown to, as if the quest and content designers were completely unaware of this aspects… and you know what, I think they were.

They’ve really not done well by the night elves.

  1. they’ve failed to properly portray them as a night race, night time, noctunral civilizaiton, nocturnal world
  2. They failed in poroper presentation and representation of nearly every facet save the druid one, but even there, they ended up writing night elves in game as some sort of druidic race, which they never were, rather than the druid class being dominated by night elves, they wrote the night elves dominated by druids and druidism - and almost nothing of
    a) Elune
    b) the stars and mon
    c) the arcane - well of eternity
    d) night elven civilization and magic

And now they gave us Bel’ameth and Amirdrassil - which might as well be the druid capital rather than then night elf capital - so indistinguishable they are…

Bel’ameth and Amirdrassil - again

  1. Nothing of the night
  2. Nothing of Elune - who was originally the arcane goddess counterpart to the nature wild god counterparts - but they seem to be shoving her into a Loa type entity.
  3. Nothing of night elf civilziation.
  4. No evidence of night elven arcane magic mastery and the high level advancements. only the SHen’drlaar highborne gorup are there, or a few representatives, with only portals to show
  5. While we see a place for dmeon hunters and DKs and dark ragners, and druids of the flame - the unique skillset they play and their relevance in ngiht elf l ore, especially demon hunters is not appropriately visible amongst the night elves.
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People of our generation generally don’t want to play primitives, losers and savages.

And while the Night elves are not those overall in the lore, in the game this is what they largely come off as.

They look primitive with no evidence of civilization in game though they are reported in books to have developed the best one.

They come off as losers the vast majority of the time, either toothless, magic powerless or damsel in distress types, stack contrast to how they were launched in wc3 and written about in their 6 novels- nothing close to
That calibre in game existed up to Legion where it appeared briefly to be replaced by genocide number 2.

They were never savage though we got the impression demon hunters, sentinels, wardens could fight with a ferocity akin to savage - but never in game , and if their fighting style was savage, they would have been expect to come off bad as there and show an opposite side with a level of dignity and sophistication their history has give.

The Epic Levels of Disappointment

And off course we are going to be disappointed by this … I mean really who wants and entire epic race to just be savages in a forest… even for the actually designed to be savage races - like orcs, trolls and later worgen - blizzard gave them decent enough urban infrastructure…

and yet somehow an elven race, an elven race! and the one that is supposed to be the genesis of the nitre one, with the past that has exceeded everything done by the mortal races according to their own lore, is suddenly a pure hippy race.

Like the concept of versatility and diversity with and within the arcane cannot exist, or is totally lost…

Thrown away are the gems they had, -

  • That incredible civilization that was supposed to be amazing in every regard until the Highborne and queen fell to hubris and addiction - is a huge asset, every much as is the pristine forests and nature concept.
  • Who didn’t like the powerful night elven wizards taking on Eredar magicians in the War of the Ancients, wielding devastating magic the likes of which the current world including the exiled high elves lost most of that knowledge - I mean who wouldn’t want to see that?
  • The fabled Moonguard, the original Highborne the high elves come from, the Shen’dralar who are the most revered arcanists of an entire and very excellent magical civilization?
  • or the moon Priestesses and Moonguard who’s magical mastery conquered an entire world
  • the combination of mage+druid+priest that inflicted the legions’ first ever defeat.

I mean these are great concept -

  • Demon hunters - fel empowered, with corruption marring their bodies but arcane tattoos and and a fiery determination keeping their soul intact so they can destroy the Legion with their cool war glaives and magical skills…

  • Wardens secretive order of special police using the powers of the night and arcane light of he goddess to do incredible feats.

  • Then there is the whole star and moon culture centred concept, trees that reach tot he heavens, cities with tall spires and towers that reach to the heavens as this star obsessed culture looks upwards to gain it’s power.

I mean, these are interesting and exciting concept… and they’ll trash all of it… save the cool druid stuff… which they instead focus far too much on being peaceful

The thing is I wouldn’t mind the peaceful tones and portrayals, it’s the right of the racial character profile of the people - but it’s that we see them RUBBISH in wow, only the peaceful and soft, and the noobie-seeming writers who know nothing of the earlier stuff go oh, they must be all this…
Druids

  • Where is the PRIMAL rage of the bear or the cat? surely Thaon Mooncaller and Asha’mane cannot be the ONLY presentations in game of how ferocious and dangerous a druid can be?
  • With one quick short cinematic of Malfurion in bear form the only ever time I’ve seen a druid bear look and feel dangerous -
  • And what about the zero times I’ve seen a balance druid look dangerous - I mean you could say Tindrall Sageswift in Amirdrassil looks dangerous…but I’m talking about the likes of Naralax and Rensar Greathoof showing up and pulverising people with Moonfire, starsurge and stellar flare.

Priestesses
When have we ever seen Priestesses of the moon do anything but look soft… up till 10.2, the only time I had seen them look even remotely battle ready in wow w was the Priestess patrolling the road from Dolonaar to Darnassus for furbolg attacks, if you follow the NPC around, when the furbolgs come in she suddenly goes from that sweet serene benevolent voice when you poke her to a commanding “Warriors of the night” assemble.

And that’s it… none of the Starfall from Warcraft 3, or the moon and star spells that are supposed to typify the Order of the Elune
In 10.2. they just stand there with bows in quiver looking more like fancy dress hunters doing nothing really, than Priestess of Elune, in battle, using the stars and the moon like their mage and druid kin, but in a dazzling way as these are the Elune experts, not the druids, not the mages… with the bow as only a back up, a thing more useful during the long vigil when arcane usage was underwraps.

It is shocking how the concept of the night elves has shifted from some really interesting things they have had, to now just being so monotone.

No demon hunters showed up, no mages either, no priestesses wielding their power… and the druid cast we know? while there, did nothing remarkable or dangerous…nothing.

Amirdrassil
Then Amirdrassil appears, blesses the aspects, but not the night elves, , the night elves camp there - fine I can expect a retreat… but where is the news of taking back their lands, healing Shaladrassil, Highborne restoring Eldre’thalas, Nar’thalas, building a new capital, enquiring about Suramar and the Cathedral of eternal night?

Are these people serious? or jokers? on the brink of extinction, wielding power like THE Well of Eternity, Moonwells, Amirdrassil and the goddess Elune, and we see more of them taking a chill break than doing anything powerful

Where is the Excitement?
And this is what players are supposed to get excited about and happy about? Amirdrassil all but handed to the night elves… literally where is Tyrande and her Moon Priestess leadership coming in wielding the arcane power of the stars and moon or the Highborne, Shen’drlaar+Farondis+ Moonguard wielding all that mage magic and star and moon magic we saw on display in the Nighthold? Where? or demon hunters going to a task against Fyrakk using the rage and terror they are use to to tear up enemies?

I mean I get adventurers do it, but we see no powerful instances of night elves doing anything

I mean it’s just MEH MEH MEH MEH MEH …

The only thing I’m grateful for is that Amirdrassil looks beautiful and like a nature paradise, and that’s it? Where’s the rest… nature paradise is just a part of the night elves not the whole, where is the city? and where are the night forest like we saw in Ardenweald? where is the star and moon concept the Night ??? Where is the empowering and going forward to reclaim their lives, and lands, 10,000 years lost to watching against the legion, now they’ve emerged, weak, but with lots of power sources, lots of knowledge, and skill - and yet do we see that employed? Oh no… cause they are suffering from night elf lore amnesia.

I mean seriously??

Night Elves - you know Night, Stars, Moon!!!
These are NIGHT elves - not green or tree elves… their concept is dark elf + wood elf… not wood elf hippie. They were meant to bring the best of the dark elf trope and the wood elf one, not just a weak arsed wood elf fantasy. You don’t make a wood elf purple, with arcane wielding powers and origin, and magical sources, and arcane colours and firmly define them as green forest types. I mean you could have at least made the forest purple. I mean we had to wait till Suramar to see a visual concept of a NIGHT city… good job by the way, but where is the translation to the night elves it actually belongs too? [instead they carter that section away from them…with? With no equal or better substitute? and think fans will be happy ? Shows how very little in regard they held those fans and then demand and expect loyalty] Why is the Ardenweald the only place we experience an actual night forest? - this should be the major hallmark of a night elf forest, with the green forest being something more attributed to druids and their work for the wider world.

… GRRR…

Blizzard Please Review Your Work Properly
Your work, what you’ve done, and have in your notes, not opinions and comments from youTUbers and personalities even if they are famous like Bellular or Taliesen, you should be informing them on what is correct, not they you.

Please stop making night elves totally druidic. they are not a class… they are a race. Druid is a class… druid has green fields and forests and the emerald dream - not the night elves. *

Night elves have the night, Night forests, Night cities, stars and moon. Night elf depictions, imagery and presentation should be the majority night… and they should have fair balance of arcane and nature, of night elven civilization and night elven forests

Which should be night - like the Ardenweald was. when you swap into druid territory exclusively then it becomes a lot more green, with daylight and sunlight , nature in it’s full bloom… sure, nothing wrong with the majority of them being night elves, … the druids i mean, but it’s separate from the night elves themselves and the majority of night elves aren’t druids, even if the majority of druids ARE night elves. there was a time when the majority of mages and demon hunters were all night elves. in the lore, we must keep the race as having it’s balance of nature and arcane, urban and rural, civilization and non-civilization etc, themed around the night, the moon, the stars, the arcane, and night time nature. This is night elf - children of the stars… not the sun nor the trees. I repeat the night elves are not the druids. The night elves are not the druid race. You need to fix this. Don’t distort your own superior vision for a severely reduced one…costs you nothing to maintain the original one… well ,little more than you spend on this reduced version and it woudl be immensely more popular.

Please go and read your own lore blizzard, and bring back what you had epic about these night elves. Go back to the war of the ancients trilogy and Wc3, and bring back the epic things form both these eras - let us have a true night elven race, complete with both night elven civilization and night elven forest wilds. arcane and nature, Elune and wild gods - polar opposites but yet co-existing in a balance, and you can see the line form one extreme to another. male and female distinct… they don’t have to be unequal, but they can be distinct. - females dominating the warrior, hunter, priest classes, males dominating the druid, demon hunter and mage classes - and yes you have males in all and females in all but you can notice where the majority lies and how each arena is dominated by the characteristics of the gender that are in it.

This is not controversial it is distinctive and can be special, with character. These are all the unique things of the night elves.

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This is not relevant anymore. It’s “unknown” because it’s a none factor. The Highborne were building something already tried, bested and outlawed by the Blood Elves and so it’s so much better for both Sin’dorei and Shen’dralar to leave Arcane Golems with the Thalassians. Just leave them their. Don’t bother trying to do it for the night elves because they are not important to that lore.

Except they were because the only constructs around were those built by Elisande’s Loyalists and the Blood Elf Sunreaver Mages made quick work of them, along with the Arcane Construct built by the High Elf Mage.

Arcane addiction did not equal becoming lethargic to those at Hyjal. It was just the addiction.

It is specifically stated in the lore that the Shen’dralar were the ones who became lethargic and began siphoning fel essence.

What you perceive in the writing, from a novel that was written before the Shen’dralar were created (in game), is your interpretation, which doesn’t fit the canon.

But they didn’t blow up an entire camp. They were just hostile and being tampered with by the Wretched. The Arcane Cores gathered, as stated, would be used to create new Guardians for that part of Silvermoon.

Then, we have those in Silvermoon City and throughout all expansions. Hell, the Thalassians even had a giant Arcane Construct at Suramar’s Gates, whilst the night elves had an Ancient Ent. Combined with Blood Golems, they also used a powerful Arcane Golem
That is where the Shen’dralar strength, with proven Ancients of the Arcane, should be drawing their strength. Not trying to meddle in a clear Blood Elf feat of strength. If you want that stuff, just play a Blood Elf.

I am because I am quoting what the lore states.
Their is no lore for Arcane Golems in the pre sundering era. Neither Azshara nor Elisande are listed as former leaders of Arcane Golems, unlike Kael’thas. That is just the lore.

Nothing in the lore states they can even create them. Arcane Cores are needed. The Blood Elf story solidifies Arcane Golems so whatever happens with those Golems, sets the story for all others.

You haven’t given any evidence to anything of the contrary because your just desperate to have all things “arcane” go to night elves.

Show me in the lore where Azshara is listed as a former ruler of the Arcane Golems; without her, then you are stating your interpretation, which doesn’t align with canon.

Arcane Ancients are our thing for the Shen’dralar and that is what we should aim to see. I am totally against overlapping the Shen’dralar and Sin’dorei in this way.
Only the Shen’dralar ways are important to the playable night elves now, as far as the Highborne go. All those other Highborne from Azshara’s Era are long gone or transformed.

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At first being a druid can be sort of refreshing for a night elf, you get some sun, and day, like a bit of something else, while still largely being kaldorei -but these days there is 0 distinction, - if anything there should have been no distinction between mage and night elf, but it shouldn’t be no distinction between either mage and night elf or druid and night elf, as those are classes…

Anyway, night elves are not a “green” race, if they want an all nature race they should make one, a sub-race like nelf worgens or sylvar.

Elune was an arcane goddess and she had her counterparts in the nature wild gods like Marlone and the others, the union of Elune with Malorne sort of symbolises the union of arcane with nature and both the harmony and balance of the two contrasts existing.

Turning Elune into a nature goddess makes the night elves bland - one flavour only… also focusing on nature so heavily isn’t really the correct theme for a night race either. Nature’s main power comes from the sun. Besides it feels like it’s violating druid territory and just erasing the distinct Order of Elune and pre-sundering dark elf elements of the night elves further

This is why you have the balance of night (arcane) with day ( nautre) , moonlight/satarlight with sunlight.

you can’t just eliminate the moon/starlight, the arcnae, the night - and keep going night elves… it loses all meaning ad integrity because you blizzard simply forget what you have originally done, that made perfect sense.

The heavier emphasis should be the core theme which is the night, and the arcane, the genesis form the Well of Eternity, this is the most fundamental part of what makes the entire race the elves. Whiles blood elves have other things like light, and wood elf mastery, the main thing is also arcane because they come from night elves… it’s anti-thematic and contradictory (in the bad way) to then ignore or minimise the arcane half the night elves - presumably because blood elves are also arcanised? That never stopped the Nightborne, and so are humans? Just because blood elves have that theme also prevalent doesn’t mean night elves have to have theirs removed… they also don’t have to be exactly the same or expressed the same way. the night elf is night, moon and star focus, they should have this extra element of star and moon magic, and they are the oldest by far, so they have deeper knowledge as if they’ve gone beyond the sun and earlier /easier things.

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I don’t get you Kaiine, they were built by night elves period… Elisande had control of the Watch - which was the standing army - so therefore they employed those to the purposes of the official ruler…

Not sure why the particular distinction of “loyalists” … the Duskwatch are actually Moonguard who stayed in the city.

I’m not really advocating for any night elven group to build more golems… but I don’t like the idea of it been some only blood elf thing, when they are used in the strong mage communities and are good sentry guards - take the ruins of Zin’Azsarhi too.

Besides the night elf ones are different to the blood elf ones, the night elf ones have a different colouring and these guys use several things for defensive constructs, not just golems, which is a good thing as it makes them feel more real.

Now that’s you using head canon, the book says they became lethargic, withdrawal occurred after the implosion,

I don’t see anything wrong with the night elves using arcane golems, I suspect some would if they have the power to make them… and with Moonwells and the well of eternity, they would now be the only other group apart from the blood elves who control the Sunwell to be able to power them.

Medivh in Karazhan i the alternate timeline form warcraft movie, uses the energy form a small arcane pool he has there.

But what s clear is that it isn’t blood elf exclusive, not even elven exclusive. The blood elves use the ones from the Thundering isle now which were even more powerufl with their blood magic powering - correct me if I’m wrong here.

Except they do have them, you can’t tell me the night elves in Azshara and in Suramar went to Quel’Thalas to get arcane golems. And I think it’s a bit presumptious to think only blood elves can make golems or arcane cores that power their golems.

The evidence is the construct in Azshara and the constructs in Suramar - i mean they’re right there. how can you possibly think only blood elves can make them. The best you can say is that perhaps it’s blood elves that make most use of them - as far as we can see.

But the game doesn’t go about giving specifics like that, most of what you see is supposedly representative.

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No evidence of that - the quest texts tells us that the constructs were built quickly and were erratic.

So, they were built by Elisande’s Loyalists.

Well tough crap.

Blood Elves should always have a few extra mage tricks up their sleeve because Mages are the bread and butter of their society. It was Mages who built Silvermoon, saved Silvermoon, saved the Blood Elves…so, the extra arcane things like Golems and Mana Bombs should always be something that the blood elves have that the night elves don’t have. Why? Because night elves are a more druidic society with a mage branch. That Mage branch has it’s own unique areas like Arcane Ancients, whom have knowledge and lore and power, which fits with the Shen’dralar as they documented knowledge, lore and power.

If you want Arcane Golems, Mana Bombs and things that carry more immediate power, then play a blood elf. It makes sense that these stay with the blood elves and have been bettered and mastered by them because unlike the shen’dralar, who had no threats for ten thousand years, the thalassians had to keep bettering their arcane mastery and legacy in order to keep the Amani and later the Old Horde and Red Dragons at bay.

They were addicted. Not one mention in Chronicles mentioned the entire night elf populace were lethargic.
I don’t go off outdated material like the WoTA trilogy. Chronicles is the modern version and has more information.

This is a nothing statement. You don’t need founts of power to create Arcane Golems. When the Sunwell was gone, the Arcane Golems still patrolled East Silvermoon as did the Blood Elven Scryers’ Golems in Shattrath and Quel’Danas. What you need is Arcane Cores, what the Blood Elf Magister states.

Nelfs don’t have the resources to create them…because Arcane Cores are needed. The Blood Elves and High Elves started this story so everything in it relates to what is needed to create an Arcane Golem.

They also use the Arcane Golems from Silvermoon, Shattrath and a huge one that they created from Suramar.

They are a core Blood Elf thing. Night Elves should not be written into Arcane Golem lore. They should remain none-factors. Not even the Arcane Golem lore page states anything about the night elves in Azshara. Why? Because the night elves in azshara served their purpose of have their experiment destroyed by the Goblin / Horde player.

Outside of Elisande’s Loyalists and that failure in Azshara, where have we see them? You can’t keep using these two examples as proof that Arcane Golems are a big thing in night elf / shen’dralar society, when the fact is - they aren’t.

That’s not evidence. In fact, this makes night elves look really bad because it shows that they’re use of arcane sorcery is indeed, outdated to blood elves. So forget that whole lore. Just keep Arcane Constructs with the Blood Elves of Silvermoon, Blood Elves of Shattrath and High Elves of the Kirin Tor.

Their wasn’t any indication of arcane golems in the ruins of Zin-Azshari. The only thing that was their, which wasn’t taken to Quel’Thalas later, was the creation of snap-dragons.

Created by, advanced by and made better by Blood Elves.
High Elves also use and create them still.

Only the pure Thalassian Magi use them effectively. All others are hostile mechanical failures and if you truly care about those races, you will forget that those failures exist.

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Okay. I don’t want to derail
An otherwise helpful and expressive topic over a minor disagreement.

Let’s just say we disagree here. I feel that arcane wielding might elf kind can have arcane constructs, as well as others like Ancients of Arcane who aren’t constructs but living beings. You feel that only blood elves should have them.

Ancients of Arcane are living intelligent beings not just effectively robots with a defense matrix/ protocol or information bank and I feel it’s fitting that you see a wider variety of tools and creatures employed around the night elves than you would for the blood elves.

I would like to see even more stirrup that can properly attest or hint at the scope of the elves pre-sundering empire and proliferation in the arcane that is so vaunted and reputed to be miles ahead of anyone else in so many areas. I want to see evidence of this in game too and so ancient arcane wielding night elves emerging to be a part of living and functioning should
Show this evidence. From the Jsne’ddalar highborne to the Darnassian Highborne, Farondis Highborne, Moonguard and Nightborne should be a plethora of highly advanced magical tools, things, works, skills and knowledge both well beyond the known world’s magical purview and quite wondrous.

I think that with the blood elves we should be seeing new things, rather than long lost things for the bigger part, but these would be distinguished from night elf things by their sun and fire based themes, blood themes etc.

I am curious why you are so hung up on arcane constructs. It seems more than a matter of “taking away from blood elves” and does not appear responsible to me.

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Because it’s the lore. That your not simply accepting.

They are just a core Magister creation, from the Thalassian Elves. Not Shen’dralar, the only important highborne left on Alliance.

Your going off headcanon because you saw one failed night elf construct in Azshara. That has no bearing on ten thousand years ago. If it did, Azshara would be listed as a former leader of the Arcane Golems.

Arcane Golems and Mana Bombs are powerful forms of the modern era magic, that can crush, destroy and leave arcane dust behind. Night elves should be nowhere near this lore because these things are all about High Elves and Blood Elves (especially mana bombs, which were created and designed by Blood Elves.)

And Arcane and Frost Magic Mastery and Legacy.

Arcane is obvious because the Blood Elves make up some of Azeroth’s most powerful Arcanists.
Frost Magic is in the lore and is the school that High Elves practiced before the fall. On top of Fire Magic, Blood Elves would have all that mastery of frost magic at hand.

Bingo. Their we go. “Your feeling” is not important to me. It has to be listed in the lore and if it’s not…then, for me, it doesn’t exist.

Zin’Azshari had NO arcane golem remnants. All it had was an echo of the Highborne creating snap dragons and teleportation beacons that the Nightborne used, much later.
Eldre’Thalas had NO arcane golems either. Had lots of Arcane Pylons, Treants and Ancients, akin to all things night elf in a dense woodland, but no Golems, Telemancy Beacons or Mana Bombs.

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So how do you account for the ones in Suramar too? And the hijacked construct in Azshara was construct technology from 10k years ago, the Magister mentioned the out dated tech, proving that they aren’t a sole creation of the magister… and the lore bit you said never said only the magisters have them.

Everything I am mentioning is coming from in -game - how is that headcanon? They didn’t get those constructs form the magisters - not the night elves in Azshara nor the Nightborne in Suramar - how can they be exclusively a magister creation.

This is where I am not connecting with you.

yeh but frost has the high elves, the void elves, the kirin’tor too already up there too. Arcane has the Highborne, Nightborne as their dominant link - I mean the purple elves already have the colour of the arcnae in their skin and eyes. i’ts the magic of hte stars and moon too, I mean, blood elves aren’t going ot get any particular distinction there from the other mage groups.

but who is to say there is only one dimension of frost or one of arcane? or that frost, fire and arcane are the only aspects of being a mage /shrug. this is why fire and blood are excellent places for blood elves to distinguish.

Fire fits the Belves very well, volatile, temperament, the high skill , the colour theme etc and blood and blood elves - and there is no competition from other factions. Sure we could have a night elven or void elven faction or other race that emerge as great pyromancers.

You can’t possibly think the short handful of quests and one memory experience covers the extent of the greatest civilziation in the world and all they did… surely not.

And regardless of our feelings, Kaiine, we’ve seen them use arcane constructs in game - this means they both can and do - remember in game just gives examples of what happens and it doesn’t cover everything that goes on in Azeroth.

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I think it looks low effort and terrible, if I’m being honest. Like a scaled up Dolanaar.

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I am actually surprised they put afford to show they are apperently not abandoning Kalimdor, even though it would make much more sense, they always Lose and are crap at Protecting, or doing anything at all really.
And since this is Neutral Land they dont have a city of their own, everything is shared.
Well Night L’s are weak and pathetic so whatever, hopefully we dont have to endure another moment with them getting wrecked again, im tired of babysitting them, especially Tyrande ugh what a useless waste of air…

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Indeed a scaled up Dolanaar. I was thinking the same thing.

This is basically new Teldrassil, without a capital city. It’s more green flight than Night elf.

As idyllic as the zone looks, it doesn’t have the typical night elf hallmarks of purple - it’s too green. There is no sense of the night there either.

IT is a nature/druid haven - great for the druid class but not quite appropriate for the night elf race.

It’s like blizzard have forgotten that they are NIGHT elves - and called them KALDOREI - children of the stars not trees.

Gave them purple skin the colour of the arcane, silver eyes also the colour of the arcane and of pure starlight - which happens to be arcane too.

Originally the race was balanced: You had Elune - an arcane orietnated Goddess linked tot eharcane well of eternity and the wold gods - the nature ones on the other side.

You had the dark elf Priesthood order and highborne dark wizards, with the dark elf civilization conrasted with the forested Druids, sentinel hunters and rangers in vast forests - which are definitely a wood elf/forest elf thing.

NOw there is no balance - they just seemed mismatched because only the nature side is shown which is quite at contrast with much of the visual guise and lore, including the name of the race. Nothing to redress it. Insterad… Tyrande is now doing emerald and nature magic, Elune is now the sister of nature based Winter Queen as if to say she is a loa or a nature goddess - which removes the balance of the night elves between arcane and nature, dark elf and wood elf, and tehey would always be skewed towards the dark elf - their skin colour, their night vibe. Dark elf is the primary, forest elf the secondary.

NOw they are making it all about nature as if they are all druids. And they all live like druids in the long vigil that was ended nearly 20 years ago. Because blizzard have ported all their lore and asses to the horde because it was far too cool for the alliance, and the horde obviously needed to be more popular and have all the better things of the alliance still at legion when they were the vast majroity.

So now faction doesn’t matter less and less, but when do we see.