No Resilience = game fun is destroyed

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

It’s entitled to tell people to get over it. Why would they get over it and play other games.

i didnt tell anyone to get over it, i Simply Stated that the game isnt catering for it.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

WoW’s PVP has always been hella entertaining. A lot of PVPers also did PVE to some content (trinkets and other BiS items). You always had to PvE even when there was PVP gear available.

Yes… but its obviously grown largely and annoyed a large amount of pvp players.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

These PVP oriented players pay a hefty sum every expansion and every month. You can’t say that about a lot of games out there. Yes, they expect quality, it’s not unreasonable. I’m sorry but I disagree with you.

So does anyone trying to Be at the competitive Edge. Mythic raiding tax also exists… and alot of high tier PvE players are making similar complaints due to how many hoops they have to jump through every tier to be able to participate.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Yes, they expect quality, it’s not unreasonable. I’m sorry but I disagree with you.

theres nothing to disagree on, blizzard took their Design and its stood for the longest time now… and SL Isnt undoing the PvP issues realistically, so its obvious it wont be fixed either.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Things like PVP gear, class balance, class design, they should be important on their agenda. More so than what kind of abilities does the X boss have.

they are held to high importance. providing u aknowledge they’re again PvE Focused. the balancing in PvE content has only gotten better and better over the Years… with Sooo many more speccs being Way more capable comparitively to how it used to be.

you seem to misunderstand what a PvE Focused MMORPG means… it means its balancing, Designs and decisions are made with PvE as a Priority. Not vice versa.

Its not possible to balance both content, they are worlds apart on what they need what makes them overpowered and More… Unless they Litterally Duplicate the current Class and Specc pools and progress 2 of every class and Specc in seperate ways to cater to both audiences

given the fact Ion stated the team is struggling to balance 36 speccs in PvE enviroments i cant see them managing this.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

People beat a raid a few times and wait for another patch, but PvP is a form of in game entertainment that will always be there, even during content lacking expansions or patches.

with the Several Systems that have to be Progressed
Daily PvE Content.
Reputations.
Story Lines (Suramer etc etc)
things like Mage tower, visions and Torghast.
Mythic+

um no. no it isnt, and most raiders do the raid content weekly every week, as alot of raiders gear and progress more then 1 character to increase their raid flexibility.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

And the arena Esports has a much older tradition than M+ or whatever.

M+ Hasnt existed as long as Arenas so kinda A mute point.

World firsts have always been a huge tradition for god sake… People have Litterally DIED IN REAL LIFE for the sakes of trying to win… Lmfao.

The competitiveness of World Firsts and more is the Reason time gating exists and achievements were deleted… because it was Litterally killing people participating as Some went waay over the top

NO ONE died for the Arena Esports… and When u ask Non-WoW playing games… The incidents that happened which resulted in the loss of lives due to World firsts is generally the common knowledge.

Im sorry, but WoW is known for 1) People actually Dying for. and 2) Destroying relationships and also a Toxic Community which isnt really true in alot of cases atleast.

Im not saying PvP is irrelevent… im saying expecting blizzard to manage 2 Seperate styles of play Actively and give them their own Worlds is simply beyon d blizzards ability.

If they were capable of this… the Meta wouldnt be so strict… and More then 1 talent would be viable in a Row.

my class has sat on 1 Viable Talent Set up for its entire existance… Why? because blizzard Cant balance classes in a Way where the Talent tree isnt Completely locked down to Single choice Rows.

if they cant balance a Talent tree. why do u expect them to be able to balance PvE and PvP Simultaniously.

and on the PvE Focused MMORPGS. WoW has the Best PvP content by a absolute Mile. FFXIVs pvp scene is litterally Dead to the point its memed on… their PvP Queues are 4 hours in length because Litterally People think the contents a absolute Joke

Rift publically posted they’ve given up on PvP Entirely to persue a Stronger focus on PvE Content.

EQ1 and EQ2 didnt even have proper PvP Existing… they have a Arena which u can battle Pets in between one another… and a Simple completely imbalanced open world Dueling system.

Wildstars PvP Scene released so imbalanced and buggy, the litteral content died Before its Release.

and even if u turn to PvP focused MMORPGS.

Tera, is Wildly imbalanced. GW2 lacks any competitive scene because they still fail to introduce a Real Ranking system, ESO cant uphold PvP and has Game breaking bugs which its unable to even fix.

btw just so we’re clear… ALL THESE GAMES Require a Ton of PvE content to persist in… ESO all sets required to even be viable in pvp require large PvP Grinding… and u need every set due to the fact they’re ALL based on tier sets and Procs which do major damage… with item level increase its ALL needed. GW2 goodluck in open world without pve gear, Rift actually did have a PvP Set of armour… i suspose u can buy the armour for RL money now tho.

the point is…

Every MMORPG is failing their pvp community, not just WoW, and Saying MMORPG PvP is dead. isnt being Entitled its being honest. Stop acting like this is a WoW inclusive Problem.

Litterally. no MMORPG has kept its PvP Audiences.

[Weffi-kilrogg]

@Ceressà-stormscale

Because PVE gear is a lot better, clearly. Once you add resilience people who want to PVP will obviously go for that one. You’re assuming all PVPers play with PVE gear because they enjoy PVE which is a flawed logic in the first place.

And it worked out great during TBC and WOTLK. A lot of people were playing Alliance for PvP only because of the fast queue times and racials.

it worked for pvp, but from a pve players perspective it was bad realy bad, you got those resiliance people in raids, who had no idea, and their dps was sub par, resiliance broke pve and a lot.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

i didnt tell anyone to get over it, i Simply Stated that the game isnt catering for it.

And that’s pretty much saying they should get over it.

@Spooki-draenor

and SL Isnt undoing the PvP issues realistically, so its obvious it wont be fixed either.

That’s bad. I have a few friends who want to play SL strictly for pvp with some pve on the side. I guess they will be disappointed yet again.

@Spooki-draenor

Its not possible to balance both content, they are worlds apart

The game will never be balanced perfectly. When did that ever happened? You could say the peak of PVP for WoW was WoTLK. Was the game balanced back then? No, it wasn’t. Was it fun? Yes. That’s what it made pvp enjoyable, it was fun. Class design and fantasy were on point even if they were very unbalanced.

You could say but Wotlk had a lot less classes and speccs to balance. Take MoP then. MoP had a lot as well, but people enjoyed PvPing there. What is the source of the problem? I say mainly class design which seems to be a major problem for PVErs as well btw.

@Spooki-draenor

Daily PvE Content.
Reputations.

Yea, the things that people looove to death nowadays. Because you’re stuck doing something (like stupid pathfinder) it doesn’t mean players are having fun.

@Weffi-kilrogg

it worked for pvp, but from a pve players perspective it was bad realy bad, you got those resiliance people in raids, who had no idea, and their dps was sub par, resiliance broke pve and a lot.

I’m not talking the usual pugs here and there. I’m talking competitive PvP players who actually had a proper PvE set in their bags and raided high end.

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

And that’s pretty much saying they should get over it.

no it isnt, realistically they are very different things.

Im not as a Player agreeing with Said statement or defending it, im merely presenting it.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

That’s bad. I have a few friends who want to play SL strictly for pvp with some pve on the side. I guess they will be disappointed yet again.

Ofcourse its bad yes. but As i said, without a Huge investment they’re never gonna get it right.

remember Once WoW had a Dev dedicated to each Class, its been scrapped now u have like 2 People who now Actively do every class. Remember when u had PvP Devs. Not anymore. There all run through the same 2 guys.

which btw Also do high end PvE content. these two things layered upon each other… means the game has no Competitive PvP Player present at balancing boards or present on the Decisions made by blizzard.

to even stand a Chance at getting PvP correct, they’d have to actually Employ people for these roles once again and we’d likely see a improvement made overall. but they wont.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

The game will never be balanced perfectly. When did that ever happened? You could say the peak of PVP for WoW was WoTLK. Was the game balanced back then? No, it wasn’t. Was it fun? Yes. That’s what it made pvp enjoyable, it was fun. Class design and fantasy were on point even if they were very unbalanced.

its not about balance. Theres a Reason why huge amounts of Complaints have poured out from WoW for almost its entire existance… theres a Reason why WoW has only ever bled more and more PvP players over its entire existance also.

theres a Reason we see nothing but the samew names participating in any competitive PvP to begin with also .

its because they’ve put in a Successful System… and been unable to progress it ever since… and every decision the games made to improve the PvE Life has directly negatively impacted the PvPers gameplay.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Yea, the things that people looove to death nowadays. Because you’re stuck doing something (like stupid pathfinder) it doesn’t mean players are having fun.

Daily PvE content and Reputations were Never hated to be done, and LOADS did they before pathfinder was ever attached to them. the problem occurs because the Portion of the playerbase who Never participated in this content Now feel its Mandatory.

SL is fixing that though… by tying Pathfinder to the Actual Power progression of the game. thus every player will naturally unlock it regardless of how they play the game

Another PvE Fix right there.which will also enforce more PvE Content upon a PvP player. because the borrowed power systems already do that massively.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

Another PvE Fix right there.which will also enforce more PvE Content upon a PvP player. because the borrowed power systems already do that massively.

There’s nothing wrong with that. I think it’s safe to say PVP players play the game just like everyone else. And they would of course want to progress through it just like a PVE focused player.

And like I said the issue isn’t doing PvE itself, that’s always been the case. Any competitive PVP player knows there will be PvE involved if they wanna get into the BiS game.

The problem is there isn’t any notable difference between being focused on either content, no real advantage to doing PVP content, that was the whole point of the topic (if I understood anything from it).

[Spooki-draenor]

the people who play both sides of the game dont have that many complaints… but it directly goes against what the OP is demanding

the OP wants a Seperation of PvE and PvP Players to exist… and to PvP Without the need to do PvE content.

the balancing of WoW PvP isnt any worse then what it was… its Still the same thing… with specific comps and more being Demanded.

i mean corruptions did cause a HUGE problem for PvP but its being removed.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

the OP wants a Seperation of PvE and PvP Players to exist… and to PvP Without the need to do PvE content.

I think the OP wants a PVP player to be able to be competitive without the need to do PVE, not necessarily to separate them completely.

Which is what resilience did back in the day. You could pvp just fine without high end trinkets or other raid items. Getting them would would only give you an advantage. Right now it’s all pve gear for pvp.

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

I think the OP wants a PVP player to be able to be competitive without the need to do PVE, not necessarily to separate them completely.

and this is the part im saying will never realistically happen… with the continous Drive to increase PvE Systems to increase Player engagement with content and more… its only obvious that this will Push Mandatory PvE gearing further and further.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Which is what resilience did back in the day. You could pvp just fine without high end trinkets or other raid items. Getting them would would only give you an advantage. Right now it’s all pve gear for pvp.

Well it did yes… but lets Look at SLs systems to see if putting Resilience in would really fix the Problem.

• Legendaries, its pretty obvious resilience wouldnt replace this.
• Conduits will require PvE farming as they dont affect your ability to wear Resilence.
• Convenant Progression.
• Soulbind progression.

Each tier the OP is still gonna be forced to play PvE to be Competitive. due to conduits Aloner… everytime they release a New wave of these we will have to go collect them all once again.

So would the Return of Resilience Remove the OPs need to PvE to be competitive? No.

borrowed Power Slaps a Huge “mandatory” Sign on everything tied to it… and u could argue “Just make all the conduits farmable in PvP” they wont do this… because U know exactly how this would turn

it’d release the floodgates of players Farming the Crap out of PvP content for drops which would otherwise be tied to weekly Lockouts.

Then we go down Problems of the Route.

No longer will Alot of PvE players participate in PvP… which reduces the Pool of the playerbase, these inital Changes were to increase PvEs participaton in PvP Content… its a Way to Fuel both Fields of play with 1 Playerbase. so then they’ll have to fix that

and we’ll see similar to the visions ability to apply sockets to pieces of armour.

We’ll see us able to Apply Resilence to armour.

then the PvE problem rises again where farming BiS PvE gear and then applying resilience to it becomes the Meta.

Reducing PvErs Engagement with PvP content. would drastically Reduce the Player pools of the PvP… increasing queue times and making finding Arena groups harder as Alot of people wont have time to progress 2 Seperate grinds simultaniously while holding to their raiding guilds requirements.

which would reduce PvP Down to Casual Players who Dont do PvE hard enough to really mind the PvP grind ontop of it. and Hardcore PvPers… which would Reek havoc upon the casual Playerbase who’d eventually stop participating… and then we’ll bleed PvPers Because of the Lack of Player engagement causing them to wait excessive times to get into PvP content.

we already have complaints from Some people saying they cant get Arena teams and more… reducing the player pool engagement with the content would only make this worse

[Mikitaio-burning-legion]

I agree with need of resilence items, but also i already got 3 sets of items in my bags :X

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

borrowed Power Slaps a Huge “mandatory” Sign on everything tied to it

This alone sums up the problem with PVE content at the moment. I don’t know why they went for this trend honestly. This alone makes it obvious why PVE will always be the number 1 choice because you can’t get that kind of power in PVP.

@Spooki-draenor

No longer will Alot of PvE players participate in PvP… which reduces the Pool of the playerbase

I disagree with this statement. Like I said I actually think a lot of players, especially Alliance are avoiding PvP like the plague. And no , WM on is not for pvp, it’s for the rewards.

Giving them competitive PVP gear would put them at a faction advantage because their PvE scene is already weaker. That will give them more incentive to actually do PvP because they will be able to stand up for themselves.

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

This alone sums up the problem with PVE content at the moment. I don’t know why they went for this trend honestly. This alone makes it obvious why PVE will always be the number 1 choice because you can’t get that kind of power in PVP.

you litterally stated the answer to this a few Posts ago.

Because Prior its Existance. the game relied on Heavy revamps every expansion to keep PvE content Fresh. borrowed power allows blizzard to continously refresh the way classes play throughout a Expansion making PvE content change more regularly Keeping it fresh to a PvE audience

Again with the PvE Focus thing.

Without it… PvE would become More Dull. and as we saw from Legion, borrowed power can be Successful, the problem with BFA is said Borrowed Power became boring as you farmed the same Effects again and again and over 3/4s of them were Passive RNG procs.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

I disagree with this statement. Like I said I actually think a lot of players, especially Alliance are avoiding PvP like the plague. And no , WM on is not for pvp, it’s for the rewards.

they are yes, WM is heavily Horde biased currently which makes Questing Painful for a Alliance Player. the faction imbalances are causing ALOT of problems here.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Giving them competitive PVP gear would put them at a faction advantage because their PvE scene is already weaker. That will give them more incentive to actually do PvP because they will be able to stand up for themselves.

Im afraid gear will never trivalise the overpopularity of Horde compared to themselves. and Alot of people with a problem with this are Actually the PvE Community

the PvPers on alliance are actually very present in WM… they’re daily Destroyiung the horde in nazajtar… and you also have groups of them which annihilate all horde throughout invasion zones

I see nothing but QQ from the Horde channels about them getting annihilated by alliance in both these zones.

WM offers Significant Improvements for PvE reasons.

Alliance are getting 30% More vital Currencies and More for being WM Active… which obviously makes WM for progression purposes almost feel mandatory. with this comes alot of Irritation to the PvE Community, espically when the factions Are so unbalanced that your either involved with the PvP communities efforts to destroy the horde… or ur getting ganked left right and centre.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

Im afraid gear will never trivalise the overpopularity of Horde compared to themselves

It will. Once the PvE gear stops being a stable for PvP players, the actual pvp players will stop going Horde to get geared. Why would they?

They can obtain good gear doing PVp with faster queue times and in the environment that they enjoy the most.

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

It will. Once the PvE gear stops being a stable for PvP players, the actual pvp players will stop going Horde to get geared. Why would they?

They can obtain good gear doing PVp with faster queue times and in the environment that they enjoy the most.

but if the horde have MORE PvPers then the alliance… their still outnumbered.

the Easiest fix to WMs Situation is Easy

REMOVE the PvE Incentives to participate… a LARGE quyantity will all switch it off to never play it again.

and you’ll only have the PvP community Inside WM.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

but if the horde have MORE PvPers then the alliance… their still outnumbered

For the start that will be the case. Things will start to settle down in time.

[Spooki-draenor]

no ones gonna pay uptoo over a £1000 to transfer to alliance regardless of opportunity.

Just remove the PvE incentive to WM and the problem will sort itself as PvErs will turn it off.

People do swap faction… but u oftenly see those who dont wanna part with their characters do not… thus is because its too expensive to move… and in the circumstances of moving in hope of “Alliance becomes Popular again” is one hella a Risk to make

someone would have to make the first move and that comes with a Hefty price on a Risk.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Spooki-draenor

Just remove the PvE incentive to WM and the problem will sort itself as PvErs will turn it off

Sure but that doesn’t fix the gearing issue. Sorry I’m not able to reply to all your points because my son is having a meltdown

[Ludidokttor-sylvanas (Ludidokttor)]

only what resiliance makes is that pvp gear is useles out side of pvp completely and if pvp players wants to do anything else than pvp he needs to grind pve , pvp players this way can play jump in pve any time and pve player can jump in also , only problem is that pvp players spoiled by pvp vendors in the past where they and now they need to play more for gear , sit in arena for whole month for 4 hours per day and u will see results

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Sure but that doesn’t fix the gearing issue. Sorry I’m not able to reply to all your points because my son is having a meltdown

Well no, but it’d defintly Redfuce the Numbers which would make the fights more fair… and given the Scaling Is Applied now directly to Instanced PvP… with open world PvPs super imbalanced gameplay it wont matter all that much

Resilience effectively got baseline baked into the game… via the Instance PvP Scaling. the Problem occurs said Scaling accounts for borrowed powers usuage in PvP… you could argue just switch it off… but Classes dont feel great then at all. and to Massively bulk Gameplay into the class then push PvErs into borrowed powers simultaniously would create a RoflStomp in PvE content.

but Open World PvP… isnt exactly balanced and i really cant see Resilience fixing the issue as all balancing is done instanced wise.

[Ceressa-darkmoon-faire]

@Ludidokttor-sylvanas

only what resiliance makes is that pvp gear is useles out side of pvp completely and if pvp players wants to do anything else than pvp he needs to grind pve

Partially true. The PVP sets were totally fine for world content. Not raiding yes, but some PVP items were really good regardless.

And why are they spoiled? It’s a game tradition that’s been removed because the game design changed, doesn’t make them spoiled.

@Spooki-draenor

the Problem occurs said Scaling accounts for borrowed powers usuage in PvP… you could argue just switch it off… but Classes dont feel great then at all.

Borrowed power is and isn’t the main issue here. I think it’s fairly accesible to pvp players as well, at least in Shadowlands. Now note, I’m not a raider and I haven’t tested SL so I might be BSing here but I think the Sl system seems to be a good change comparing to BfA.

[Spooki-draenor]

@Ludidokttor-sylvanas

only problem is that pvp players spoiled by pvp vendors in the past where they and now they need to play more for gear , sit in arena for whole month for 4 hours per day and u will see results

i think this is Kind of a Entitled opinon here. Is It realistically that “Unacceptable” to ask for Progression to be avaliable in the content we want to do?..

Lets Look at this even as a PvE Playerbase

• Azerite Level, we hated it… because it forced us into content we didnt wanna participate in.
• Warfronts Again anothjer complained topic. because we felt it mandatory to do for the gear rewards
• M+ Has even recieved some hate because raiders feel it has to be done and they dont want to do it.

this argument has been presented on both Sides of the Field and commonly argued over and Pushed as a critism because Pushing Mandatory content into fields the playerbase dont want… is Simply being Inflexible and not Consumer friendly.

@Ceressa-darkmoon-faire

Borrowed power is and isn’t the main issue here. I think it’s fairly accesible to pvp players as well, at least in Shadowlands. Now note, I’m not a raider and I haven’t tested SL so I might be BSing here but I think the Sl system seems to be a good change comparing to BfA.

true SL does look to be a huge improvement… but im Kinda expecting something to happen mid way which is gonna cause a larger impact imho.

they’ve already stated they’ll add more soulbinds over the course of the expansion… so by the looks of it… this isnt where the systems stop.