They should make m+ gear relevant to open world/ dungeons, raid gear relevant to open world/ raids, pvp gear relevant to open world/ pvp. Not cross activity (maybe -20 ilvl punishment or something), this way everyone is happy.
Oh and I hate the great vault, rather have OK droprates (randomized ilvls, always 1 item per M+/raid boss, etc).
I dont and one thing over 75% less guilds has killed jailer on normal mod in first 4 weeks of this patch compared to first tier.
No M+ is killing raiding. Tier sets are only thig what made people do raids. Specialy normal and heroic. Once Catalist releases normal and heroic raiding will die out. Thats why it was gated in first place. Tons of guild completly skiped Zoval just becouse he doesnt drop tier sets which means all the other loot outside of tier is completly useless becouse everybody alredy walk in full m+15 gear as it was simply more efficient to do.
No you don’t since you do not want to be proven wrong. I am even pretty sure there is literally nobody on this forum who can show 1 dungeon of +15 done in 15 or less minutes.
And to add on the simple math; even when you are able to do 4 dungeons in an hour. In 3 hours you do 12 dungeons, which is 4-5 pieces of loot. You do not need to kill 75 raidbosses for 4-5 pieces of loot either. Everywhere that simple math of you or Mat or bellu is completely wrong. Facepalming wrong.
And 262 gear is nothing special. Zovaal normal is dropping higher loot. It is just very possible the raid is tuned too difficult. My guild is currently still on Anduin normal progression.
Zoval is easyest boss out of last 3 bosses and players dont do him becouse he doesnt have tier gear and decreases your chance of getting tier in your vault if you kill him And 262 is very decent gear so.
This has nothing to do with M+ though. That is a problem with tier sets and the way the raid-row of the vault works. And no 262 is nothing. We come from 252 from previous season. We go to 280+ in this season. 262 is low.
From a guild perspective getting tiers were faster for two reasons:
Also keep in mind that, unlike in Legion, we came from a tier without tier sets, and on top of that the previous tier set alternative we had (domination shards) do not work in the new raid or outworld content. From a DPS perspective that was a notable drop (not to mention a few classes got nerfed in order for the tier piece not to snowball out of control), and since later heroic bosses were already balanced with some tier pieces in mind it is no surprise that it feels harder compared to the previous tier. A lot of guilds are doing lower difficulty bosses for these tier pieces, which overall slows down progression, not to mention that this means that in pugs it will take time for more consistent heroic clears to start becoming a thing.
M+ was indeed a loot pinata, atleast pre-SL. The higher key you did, the more loot drops you got. You got around 3, while for a 21 you were guaranteed to have 4 loot drops, with a good chance to get a 5th drop back in BFA (If memory serves me right after 15 it was 20% per key level to get extra loot after 15 key level).
Keep in mind that that is 262 piece of gear that, as per usual, you can upgrade to 272, which is 3 ilvls lower than mythic ilvl pieces (minus last three bosses.) To this day there are still some items (mainly trinkets) that are stronger compared to their raid counterparts.
Was a thing until the very last raid of the expansion and even then it was a thing but they changed it so you got more loot for using personal loot per boss.
I will say for Puging raids Titanforging was awsome as it kept people who already had gear wanting to do normal and/or heroic raids.
I understand why they removed it but it has made the reason for doing normal and heroic raids when you overgear them something that is not really there anymore.
Well yeah. That is more for the future. We got multiple people still saving for their 3 weapon upgrades. I got myself decent vaults, but i also had already 1 overlapping rewards (twice needed to take the shoulders, the 2nd was tier) and 1 item i had upgraded to 272 with valor i got later in the vault.
M+ gearing is hardly as efficient as people claim. Especially saying farming M+15 for 3 hours and finishing those in 15 minutes on average = same amount of loot as 75 raid bosses. And it is totally not fair to blaim M+ for people not wanting to kill Zovaal since it drops no tier, and it is worse for the vault. Without the existence of M+ this situation was completely the same.
Well, even if you do have to wait for the upgrades to be done you still get 262 gear pieces, so beside the odd pieces you can get from raids normal is already obsolete for you. You can go straight into heroic and other than a few pieces most heroic gear is either a minor upgrade for you, or a sidegrade.
And unlike raids, you are not weekly locked from boss loot drops. Most of my guildies who religiously do M+ are already ahead of others in ilvl who only do one weekly, due to those 262 pieces.
It is not the fault of M+ that the last boss has crap loot, but you also cannot deny that gearing through M+, especially at the start of the tier, is more convenient and way more efficient compared to raid clears. Just like with the vault over time raiders do catch up or even surpass M+ players in ilvl, but M+ always have the advantage at the start of a raiding tier. Not to mention that M+ gearing becomes even more efficient if you build around it with armor type stacking.
M+ only really stops being more efficient once a guild reaches to a point where heroic is on farm, really.
Like how? With 1 weekly they have done now 5 dungeons. That is 2 pieces of loot in total. And then it even not need to be items you can not use. I am running 25 dungeons a week. I understand i am getting high ilvl that way. But the char i am doing 1 dungeon a week on is now 255 ilvl. And it started this season on 251. I had to even take twice the coin from the vault since it rewarded an not usable trinket.
^ 1 dungeon a week.
Are we really complaining about people getting higher ilvl for running dungeons for 20 hours a week?
I was debating with someone who claimed 3 hours of M+ is comparable with 75 raid bosses.
Only useable in Mythic + content.
That’d be an interesting development.
Not done any raids since nighthold, the sooner they die the better.
The game needs to move away from “Needs to know mechs” content and move towards more mindless type of content like M+.
I’ll never step another foot into a raid until they have been made much easier.
LFR is a thing i know, but just low key M+ gives higher ilvl, it’s just not worth the time.
Maybe that means mythic+ is more fun content?
I don’t understand you people, you want to force people into raiding when they can just do a less time constraining and simpler option, that’ll be more fit to today’s type of player.
As I mentioned previously, you can accelerate that massively by simply going in with people who are the same armor class as you.
You are also taking a character in consideration that is, frankly, not being paid enough attention to. Keep in mind that the people I am talking about also have double legendaries (which I think all characters beside farm alts should have baseline).
Take my guild leader for example: He does 0 keys (only did a single +5 this season). He has double legendaries, and even with us doing loot trading in raids he is only 258 ilvl. If your alt would have double legendaries and the 262 crafted piece like he does you’d already be higher ilvl than he’d be.
Even without those, with the two pieces of vault loot you have you are almost matching his ilvl.
Keep in mind, I am talking about averages here. If you take two individuals who dedicate the same amount of time for gearing, they will gear up much faster from M+ compared to gearing up from raids. You can accelerate loot drops much better from M+ than you can from raids.
I mean, just look at this mage of mine. He is already 263, and I only do dailies on him, on top of doing a single key each week.
And I think the three hours of M+ equals 75 raid drops is not talking about 15 keys. You can spam 12s, which are much easier than 15s and give 259 ilvl gear that isn’t that much lower than 262 ones. With those key levels I can see it being possible to push a key’s time down to 15 minutes a key, like Necrotic Wake, but that would still be terrible from a loot selection perspective.
More like:
You go Dungeons (Mythic 0 these days )to get gear for normal raids.
You go normal raids for heroic raids.
You go heroic raids for Mythic raids.
You go mythic+ for Mythic raids.
Even if you are able to time a dungeon on +12 in 15 minutes, which i think nobody can at the start of the season, then we are still talking about 12 dungeons. with 40% loot chance you get 5 items, which is definitely not like 75 raid bosses. Who has 12 necrotic wake keys of +12, with armor stacking? I have done 20 dungeons this week and i have not even seen 1 NW key. My score on the dungeon is kinda stuck.
You talk about armor stacking but who actually got that available? And i am pretty sure you can do that too in a raid. Killing 75 raid bosses is not equal to 3 hours of doing dungeons.
The whole comparison is just not reasonable.
Good luck with your 259 weapon that needs 6 weeks of valor to upgrade to 272.
This is a gigantic factor. WoW isn’t really a game that’s really about bringing in new players, it’s retaining it’s older playerbase, which obviously have grown up, and now have full time jobs and families.
A lot of the time, sticking to a strict 2-3 day evening schedule just isn’t feasible or guaranteed.
Funny thing is that people won’t acknowledge that tier set was mandatory for some classes to perform at least better than in the previous season. Tier Sets might be fun, the design on how they brought them back weren’t.