Shadow performs alot better from a DH if you can play it, holy is nuts and disc is absolute insane healer. Im pretty sure you will find a raiding spot 10x easyer as priest than DH.
So you do pick what performs unlike your claims.
I also remember you tend to argue with the obvious just because you wanna argue but that is your problem not mine lol
Yeah I guess the top shadow priests of the world (e.g. Ellipsis) are just wrong and I must take the word of Rondakungfu of .
Even if you compared the raw input/effort and results DH comes ontop. Miles ontop.
Holy (and disci) is practically not played in M+ at all and is held back by archaic vision of healers dating back to Vanilla WoW, lacking basic tools like mobility, utility and raw healing power. The only thing that keeps them afloat is their amazing raid healing, which is where they shine due to encounter design. Nothing else.
Citation needed.
Since youâre making the claim I expect you to provide proof, so go on and provide some logs where shadow priests make a significant portion of top mythic+ runs or top mythic raiding- Or for the hell of it, top pvp spots, compared to DHâs.
(You wonât find any).
I know this is your thing my man, you want to be the eternal contrarian but we had this run a few weeks ago and we posted for 8 hours until you vanished out of the forums in defeat, and mark my words we can do that again if you so wish but there is zero, 0 outcome youâll come on top in this one either.
Oh, nvm. Looks like youâre already clowning yourself.
Yeah, fat priest numbers right there.
You know how to read?
Doit
warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/24#metric=dps&dataset=95&class=DPS
I was 2k the first month of s4âŠ
Im pretty sure you can go alot higher
Because everybody is playing a DH and because we need more ranged. Not to re add the link from above.
Raider. io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-bfa-4/eu/priest/dps/0#content
Its good to whine when you dont play not even the 10% of what the class can offer right? But that doesnt mean youre not spewing out bs.
You mean where you where whining about the pvp vendor while you dont play the game and 3 pvp players threw out each and every insult available in their mongo dictionary?
Yes but that doesnt mean i was in deafeat of your BS tier whiner arguments 
You take an example of the top tier runs?
Wrong because you do like 10-14âs.
As you see in the link above for shadows only, priests can do up to a high amount of keys, now if you go to see healers for example:
raider. io/mythic-plus-character-faction-rankings/season-bfa-4/world/priest/healer/horde/0#content
Still double key modifiers from what you do, yet you had to whine about priests right?
5295 is fat yes
Also shadow being the 5th best dps spec in raiding is pretty fat too.
You are as clueless as all the lfr hero whiners in the forums 
Yeah and evidently you donât know how to link stuff either.
All the same, you thought this was going to be your great argument but this is what weâve been arguing against the whole time.
Spec performs well on logs =/= The spec is fun to play.
Arms is 2nd highest yet has massive amounts of complaints.
Spriest being able to outdo a DH in damage after you get the best corruptions and the best items in bosses with multiple adds is, unsurprisingly, also where they do better but in comparison STâs they are not.
So I donât know what was your great amazing point here? That the logs show that âACKWSHUALLYâŠâ SP deals more damage on patchwerk sims and therefore it is a better spec?
Again, the best shadowpriest players that are miles ahead of you in terms of gameplay are saying the spec sucks. Iâm going to take their word over mr. nobody.
And? The numbers are on my side. You said that priests are supposedly beastly in m+, yet for some reason their numbers pale in comparison to the other healer specs- or other dps.
Thatâs your argument. Not mine.
I put this argument through google translate 10 times and I still donât understand what you mean.
Are you sure you want to make this argument my friend.
Because if you do, the developer team themselves, have said, that they aim the game towards the casual playerbase. Not to the top 10%, let alone the top 1%, so again, youâre just moving your argument with goalposts to where you can say âAha but you are just playing the game wrongâ.
Yes, everybody knows you can make every single spec in this game work if you are a top 10% or 1% or if you are a masochist. Nobody denies that. In fact, the whole premise that âx not being viableâ is simply not the case and you can play literally ANY class and spec to a high spot and perform well.
This is the hill you choose to die on. Something being doable =/= Something being a good design or better.
After all, by your own logic, if things truly are so good, great and amazing with BFA and the said specs and classes, why are they changing so many things with the classes in Shadowlands? If you are so right, why are you so wrong in every single frontier in your argument? If nothing is wrong, why has Blizzard promised changes to all the classes- Including warriors, and SPâs?
No, where I very easily dismantled your ben shapiro arguments and after that you mysteriously vanished from the thread. We can have a repeat at that, if you like.
Yeah you were, the thread is, as they say, the proof in the pudding.
Actually the data takes into account literally every and all runs, but I donât see why the hell would you have a problem with using top data, since that is the very same hill you are willing to die on in raiding?
Yes, because I have no interest in pushing keys because it is a content I dislike.
Again, being able to do =/= being good design or being fun. Again, if you were right, nothing would be changing in Shadowlands, but since everything is changing I am right and you are wrong- This is by your own logic, after all.
So what? I could be doing +28 keys for all I care and I would be pointing out the same problems with the class- Which, by the way, as said, top shadowpriests from EU and USA have both said.
And even then I wouldnât care what top people say or do but since you are hell-bent on using them as a metric when they havenât been and wont be the metric literally since Vanilla WoW, I just point out that youâre wrong.
Yeah well you might be 2k on rio but you still get mopped by somebody you think so below yourself, so thatâs not much of a brag is it.
For someone so sure of themselves you sure back off really easily.
What else can you find to whine for? 
It doesnt matter if in your LFR Hero disposition you refuse to see the truth, its still there though.
Im having a TON of fun playing it inside visions that i only dps, the rest i have a TON of fun playing as holy.
By LFR hero whiners like you, the rest adapt and play.
Fact.
I dont know where you find all your SP data but not all play SP like you and me lol
Its not the damage that SP lacks vs DH, its a better DD already. Its the utility that lacks and the 100% dodge chance for the ultra high keys, something you never will see but you whine for xD
The name you mentioned above never complained about SP gameplay but only about its utility. The SP void form whiners are the ones that failed to adapt. Wrong again as always.
I said priests are beastly in raiding, they are more than viable in M+
I think you have to learn how to read.
It means:
Start a raid group on LFG, que yourself and 10 DHâs will try to join. If 1-2 SPâs will you will understand that everybody is playing DH and we need more ranged.
Then why you care whining since you are not playing even the 10% of your specs?
So, after i debunked your LFR trash tier arguments everybody can do it, its masochism and new trash tier arguments to dodge the obvious: YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN
I stoped talking because the shaman there was way too toxic, you will realize it now as i debunk all the trash you say
Absolutely, so far your dodge fails. Keep it up, more will laugh.
But you have to whine about it while you dont play it.
LFR Hero whiner proof 2.
You said they are not good, not they are not fun.
Dodge failed n2.
You are still a whiner about content that doesnât even play.
If you where doing such keys, you would be busy playing the game instead of BS whining on the forums about content you dont play and literally have 0 clue about.
I was 2k the first month, then i stoped.
I push 2k only to make myself appealing to pugs for weekly. No other reason.
Who moped me?
You?
Already debunk your trash tier arguments twice and you desperatly trying to dodge from ITS NOT VIABLE to I DONT LIKE IT.
Besides an LFR hero that whines about content that does not play, you are delusional as well. But i should have known these two things go together.
Keeping it up alive with trash tier excuses when your trash argument PRIEST IS NOT GOOD fails and replying like BUT I DONT FIND IT FUN its not âkeeping it upâ and for sure its not smart of you 
Whining about somebody complaining.
Congratulations for playing yourself.
Hate to break this to you but performance =/= fun and good class design.
They could pump the damage of SP by 100x and Iâd still call the current iteration bad- as have others.
Also, the truth is that the supposed good and amazing state of the spec you are willing to die on hill for is agreed to be untrue by Blizzard themselves so again, I take the word of theirs over a nobody.
Good for you. Most people arenât however, as the feedback gathered by Blizzard shows. As said, you can be a contrarian all you like but the changes are happening because majority of people call for them.
Again, fun =/= performance. An impossible concept for you to grasp, I am sure, but true all the same.
I mean, it tells a tell about you despising the LFR players so much (despite me having not even completed lfr nzoth), grasping for straws for your argument.
You have this weird assumption that if players just pushed themselves realky hard and optimized their specs they would enjoy the game- When the truth is, performance is just one small part of enjoying the class. I mean, you wont find a SINGLE player on this thread alone denying that deep wounds isnât a decent source of damage, but people complain about it all the same because it turns out they do not like having a bleed mastery.
Your own argument is working agsinst you because if you were right, none of these complaints would exist.
So many things wrong:
Sp damage is backloaded, meaning you dobt get to deal your full damage before most trssh is dead already.
You have very little in the way of utility.
You are punished severely for mobility, whereas the other isnât.
At least you tried.
Ellipsis literally mentions several times how bad the backloaded and borrowed power reliant the spec is so you are just flat out lying.
No, you said they are amazing in the game and the numbers prove you are wrong. Thats your words, not mine.
And this is relevant literally how? You can do this as any class or as a raid leader.
There it is.
âYou dont perform at an (insert arbitrary requirement here), therefore you canât have fun and you donât get to complain.â
A valid point, mr. ShapiroâŠHowever.
What people find enjoyable about the game =/= performance. Shocking, I know.
Much like your quotes, you have a trouble understanding terms. Such as me pointing out that if priests are, supposedly, so fun and great and good in pve, why are they played so little? And why do people want so many changed to them? And why has Blizzard responded and said there will be changes?
Maybe monk isnât a class for you because your forum kung-fu is so weak lol.
Sounds like whiny coping to me- In fact, I remember you very well repeating the same buzzwords âwhiningâ 24/7 and when people repeatedly flushed your arguments down the toilet you relented and left in defeat.
Sounds a bit whiny, that.
This may come as a great surprise to you but you can play the game outside of high m+ keys and raiding and still find something you wish would be improved.
Explain to me how isnât class being fun to play a part of it being a good class? Your spec could be the best performing in all the game but if it is unfun people will either not play it or bite their teeth and do anyway.
Again, this is the reason you failed before and will fail again. You just type. You donât think.
For a guy that has supposedly no clue about I have managed to sweep your legs from underneath you more times than I can count, and i am not even playing a monk. Maybe you should take lessons from me.
Anyway you dont answer the point at all. Even the players who you parse as being part of that magical 10% are pointing out the problems with shadow, so congratulations on, once again, proving yourself wrong.
Who asked?
Quote me where I ever said that.
Itâs not my fault your 2k mindset cant grasp that the two are not mutually exclusive to one another. You are the one who proposed that, not me.
The best part is you keep hitting yourself all the time and all I need to do is point it out.
I guess you lack the intelligence to realize that im not whining, im proving you how wrong you are whining. If you think that answers to whiners in public forums are âwhiningâ i guess we add another trash tier excuse for you in the list
Once more, i do know what it is. You did whine about priest performance though when i replied you about priest performance you started BS tier arguments like I DONT ENJOY. Another trash tier argument in the list.
You know why?
Because these people that dont find it âfunâ and you have a common thing: You dont play the game. You only whine about it.
Again once more because you fail to understand.
You said priest is not good, i gave you links that IT IS GOOD you started bs tier arguments when you realized the truth, ITS NOT FUN.
When your trash LFR hero arguments get debunked by logs and statistics, BUT IM NOT HAVING FUN is not an asnwer.
If you played the game instead of whining you would like it, did you ever used your intellect to think about this?
Reroll is an option too, i stoped enjoying this monk, i reroled. You can IF YOU WANT to play the game instead of whining but YOU CHOOSE to whine.
Did you ever seen a SP popping 110k dps 2 months ago or so in a 17?
I doubt you would not
You dont know what you talk about, you cant tell what is wrong or right.
That goes for you because as you see, your trash arguments are getting trashed one after the other.
Borrowed power is every specs problem not just SPâs.
Now if he complains about the utility of current SP and the bad state of the shadowlands sp that doesnt mean he thinks priests are BAD. You really have to read what he writes instead of rewriting his posts to match your LFR hero opinions.
They are, 5th better dps in raidingâŠ
26âs timing
represented even in arena cupâŠ
Yet im wrong lol
That proves your point âeveryone would reroll dhâ is wrong though.
You still didnt get it?
Wasnt that your answer when i explained you why you dont need a PVP vendor?
You literally told me i dont play pvp so i would not speak?
You dont like your own trash arguments used back at you?
So you want SP and Holy disc improvements for⊠WQâs?
If you think its possible to balance all the specs in thegame to perform equally in all M+/raid/pvp areas i think you should uninstall from now.
How exactly did you do that delusional cowren?
I only see you dodging the replies to your useless comments one by one and with the most pitiful way!
Nobody, its an answer to LFR whiners that think priest is not viable.
Even the first month when people have no gear, it was doable.
My mindset answered your trash arguements one by one proving its good and more than viable. Now if you dont find it fun, the rest of the 95% players that actually play the game find it fun. L2P and adapt.
Im only seeing your head being hit here, but again as we said before the LFR heros and the delusional is something that goes together.
By your own definition you are whining.
Clearly you donât.
You keep repeating the same words over and over like they have any impact- But much like in the pvp gearing thread, people just keep dumping them to the bin because they donât add anything to the list.
You yourself agreed that SPâs lack in utility, so thatâs already omitting that their performance isnât ideal in m+.
I do play the game, just not the same way as you do- In fact, youâd be pushed to find anybody who 1:1 does the exact same thing as you do, and I think that youâre being a bit pretentions trying to put yourself in this pedestal telling that everybody else is wrong but somehow you are right, when you have only succeeded in getting the terms wrong all the time.
I complain about the state of my class because I want it to improve. Does that mean that I canât do content with it? Of course not. Nobody said that. Does that mean that because the class can perform, nothing is wrong with it? Of course not. By that logic, thereâs literally never been anything wrong about the game ever in the history of the game and people should just bow their heads down and play the game and not complain.
That kind of attitude has a name by the way. Simping for mediocrity. You call us out for whining about perfectly reasonable things that frankly do not impact you in any way, yet you are simping for no changes and keeping your head down while simultaneously spending hours on these forums pointing out that you do in fact care- Which makes your entire point moot.
Class being unfun = Class is not good.
You also admitted that priestâs performance does fall (namely, in utility), so thereâs also that. Thats your words, not mine.
Itâs not my fault that you get the terms mixed up. I never said that I am ONLY talking about performance. You did. Youâre making up these arguments, not me.
Ah yes if everyone just played the game and kept their mouth shut everyone would be happy.
Thanks mr. Shapiro but instead I will decide for myself- Further, where is your proof that everyone would just really enjoy the game if they performed at max level? Because I am still waiting for the grand argument where you equate that performance = fun.
I do play the game. I leveled my alts, I do visions weekly. I occasionally run a m+ with my friends. Occasionally I do BGâs.
I complain because I am not happy with the way the game is- As is everybody else. That doesnât mean I hate the game to the point I will quit, but I do retain the obvious freedom to point out the obvious problems with the game that exist- Like the ones you yourself admitted to.
What does pulling a random DPS stat out of your bum have to do with it? Are you saying that a class that has to multidot hardcast abilities and ramp up voidform which duration you can not by the way control out of combat does not have backloaded damage, which means that if the mobs die before those dots use their full turn, its wasted time?
You cite logic as a reason for your arguments, yet you ignore it when itâs convenient.
Itâs also worth to point out that even when SP was arguably the best ranged in the game during Eternal Palace tier in raiding, people still complained about the dullness and borrowed power reliance of the spec, with very little variance existing. Thatâs right, even when the spec was the BEST it EVER WAS during BFA, even top tier people complained. In fact, if you go to mage forums you see the exact same thing with them regarding mechagon bracers, despite them being the n1 dps spec atm.
Your own logic is failing.
Yes, it is a problem for arguably all classes but if you were to equate the problems of for example SPâs borrowed power to that of a monk youâd be making a dishonest comparison. As Ellipsis points out, thereâs a few specs in the game that require as much star aligning as an SP does- Not are any of them nearly as punishing if you do not get those things right, save for maybe feral.
I never said he did, quote me where I said that, please. I said he has, like I have, pointed out the problems with the spec.
Also thanks for admitting you lied, since you said:
Borrowed power are part of a classâs gameplay so you admit he did in fact talk about them. So you lied.
He also frequently points out that void form is inherently, and has been, problematic since itâs conception so thatâs a lie too. He has said he doesnât necessarily know what to do with it, only that it has to go or be changed substantionally.
If you are going to call me out, at least donât get your facts wrong man.
You said they are a good class, yet if they are so good class, why are they so little played in m+?
Again, the quantity numbers are on my side.
Can you quote what I said so I know what are you referring to? Because that doesnât sound like something Iâve said.
Those and M+, raiding, pvp, in fact most content, yeah. Just because they can perform doesnât mean they are in a good state- I mean, WW is at the bottom of the dps meters in raiding, but people still play them all the same because the class itself is fun. That means that the class is not in a good state, even though it can perform- Though in WW monkâs case it is because of lack of damage, rather than with priests lack of mobility and utility they used to have baseline.
Nobodyâs asking for equal performance, and again, I am not speaking of performance alone. Again, if they buffed SPâs damage by a hundred times, the class would still not be in a good state because it is unfun to play and has way too many borrowed power mechanics and abilities (e.g. voidform) that make the class a mess.
Youâre the one who keeps bringing up performance as the sole metric by which you measure whether a class is good or not, I donât. Thatâs your words, not mine.
Pointing out your lies, calling out your arguments flaws and pointing out your own arguments contradict between one another.
No, your mindset said that âYeah SP can perform on (insert arbitrary m+ or raiding levelâ, a fact I never denied. Please find a quote where I ever said that.
Where I argued, from the start, that in warriors case, nobody is saying that deepwounds is underpowered or somehow detrimental to the classâs performance: In fact, quite the opposite. People just do not find it fun at all and it is literally asked from PVE and PVP players alike to be removed.
Youâre so detached from the reality that you canât fathom that some people can dislike an ability or a passive just for its existance or function, rather than itâs performance. I mean, disci priest from WOTLK is a good example: You just literally spammed bubbles on the entire raid. Thats it. IF you did anything else you were playing it wrong. The spec was performing AMAZING, yet a lot of people found it very frustrating and unfun to play and to compete against.
I could pull a hundred more examples but the answer is the same. You made these arguments, not me. Youâre mixing apples with oranges and when I point out the obvious flaws with your arguments you fall into your own making and scream that weâre all mean and wrong.
The majority of players are not finding it fun- Else, it wouldnât be acknowledged as such by Blizzard themselves. The feedback is crystal clear in Spriests case, so as I said- I didnât even need to argue this with you, because as I said, I am right.
Blizzard proved I am right. You are wrong. Itâs not about adapting and overcoming, itâs about adjusting a fundamentally flawed game design and proposing how to do that.
I genuinely wonder if a LFR raider stole your wife or something because you have such an issue with them- or whiners. What ever did those people do to you to make you so hateful toward them lol.
Either way, as I said, you canât win this argument because you lost right at the start- You started arguing against yourself, against concepts I never proposed in the first place. You did. So by definition, you are knocking yourself out.
I ignored that guy, dunno why people waste their precious time explaining things to a potato 
Honestly, i dont get why you are such a triggered angry forum warrior 
By reading the half of your textWall i can see you saying again the same BS trash tier arguments all LFR heroes do.
Just face it, you cant play the game, you cant adapt, you found the easy sollution to whine about nonsense in the forums!
Being a triggered snowflake in the forums does not increase your digital self worth anyways.
This threat is about warriors and how good + not fun the spec is for some. Go whine in the priest forums for your L2P problems, the class is fine.
Same, he just doesnât understand that big dps numbers =/= fun spec. Itâs pointless to argue with him, he is not capable of logical thinking.
The only logical thinking here is only LFR warriors and those who failed to adapt whine about it. The 95% rest of the playerbase, just play the game.
Check all who complained in the armory, each and everyone of them did nothing in BFA. That should tell you everything you need to know about LOGIC
Most people that are saying arms is fine are forgetting moreover that 90% of our dps comes from essences, corruption and azerite traits. And all of this will be gone in Shadowlands.
Without them arms is an empty shell with absolutely no depth to its gameplay
I think the emojiâs betray whoâs truly the only angry one here. I mean, I did tell you, youâd lose butâŠYou did it all the same.
At least you tried.
And yet, you could not defeat your enemy- The LFR trash tier arguments, the bane of your existence, and wifestealer.
Nah instead I think I will complain about genuine problems with the game and classes everybody agrees on- And continue debating whimpering simps like you.
Speaking from experience?
Nah, this game was about people disliking a mastery, to which you came kicking and screaming everybody is wrong and when people pointed out that your arguments are frankly trash, you couldnât take it.
For someone telling everyone to adapt and to overcome, you sure as hell failed to do that in these forums.
Where do you even get those 95% stats from, by the way? Youâre so adamant everybody who disagrees with you is a LFR noob who shouldnât be listened to, yet your mental fortitude crumbles like a paper castle when somebody so much as pokes at your arguments.
I got it now, i debunked ur whining about the pvp vendor so loud and clear that you are salty up to today
Get to warcraftlogs, All stars DPS, arms warrior, all stars, select post nerf 1 because people still did not make any logs(like me).
And you will realize that there are 15.937 ranked only in mythic.
Yet you special snowflake saw 10 whining in the forums and guessed its the vast majority right? Therefore my math was wrong, the 99.9% could adapt and play.
My point for whiners always stands, the vast majority of them do not even play the game. Armory reveals the truth and you and the rest above are a living example of it.
Just ignore him, and Iâm fairly sure itâs him based on the way that sentences are phrased.
While you and I disagree about a lot you mostly respond to my arguments and I respect that.
Rithiel is too unironical and biased to ever be argued with. Youâll never be able to convince them about anything because they honestly think that Arms is in the best place ever.
Roundakungfu is different. His argumentation is malicious and for him, it has nothing to do with being correct, it has to do with him shouting so loud that youâll eventually give up. The supporting argument for that is in how he phrases things in a way that implicitly makes him superior and everyone else inferior, moves the goal posts, and makes the arguments of people into straws so he can claim they said something ridiculous they never did and look good countering it.
Thereâs no convincing Roundakungfu about anything because he never wanted to have an honest debate he just wanted to shout louder than everyone else and prove them inferior to his superiority. Itâs the classical bluster you see men whoâve been raised in a toxic environment where everything is about projected strength and people are either superior or inferior, stronger or weaker. And Roundakungfu subconsciously wants to show the world thatâs the heâs stronger than them and therefore has worth.
So stop arguing with him and just be safe in the knowledge that eventually heâll have an existential crisis when that kind of personality is no longer sustainable.
Iâm still waiting for the quote you called me out for but much like the rest of your post, it shines with its absence and as such can be disregarded- As people have, in both threads. But, again, at least you tried.
I am waiting for explanation of your mental gymnastics how does participation numbers equate to people thinking the class is good? As pointed out multiple times, even people that are far better than you have agreed that there is a problem so your argument doesnât even prove a thing?
People bringing up issues tend to be listened over those that are silent, unsurprisingly- But more to the point, your numbers donât tell anything about whether people that play their class think it in a good state so once again, it is a false equilevalence.
I know it is frustrating to have your face flushed through the forum toilet for clownposting for the 900th time and expecting a different result but Iâm afraid you still dont have the bite to get your points across.
I played the game just yesterday, running visions and doing some BGâs, so thats a false statement straight away.
I know you hate anybody who doesnât play the game as you do- But, despite your attempts to show how amazing and better you are, me, who hasnât even done a single mythic raid boss in nyalotha, easily defeats you in an argument because it turns out that your raider Io score doesnât quite translate to your argumentation skills.
I can give you tips if you like.
You are still writing books?
Im not going to even bother reading your BOOK-i-wanna-argue-BS.
I know you are desperate and angry because each time you try to throw out your snowflake ideas next to me you get debunked with statistics and official sites but the more you keep up the funnier you get.
Really?
I thought you knew how to check alts/mains but⊠You dont even know how to do that as well.
Rondawhite-stormscale.
But you just did lol. I mean, you even quoted me. I am truly living rent-free in your head.
Iâve lost count the amount of time you have used âsnowflakesâ, âangryâ and other buzzwords- If you actually posted some relevant facts maybe your case would have some ground to it. Alas, it doesnât.
I mean, I could quote you saying learn to read, because it seems you have missed your own advice.
I was referring to myself lacking such things yet despite that i have no issue mopping the floor with your arguments.
It must be really hard to be you at this pointâŠ
Really desperate to prove somethingâŠ
Still insisting and always get as funny as it can get