One simple(not really) thing that breaks current Demonology

We all know and understand that current warlock design is bad, and i’m not talking about your precious numbers, of your big-thick slimy chaosbolt, no. I’m talking about reall class design. And above all broken classes and specs, demonology is a chief among them. You can scream that warriors have some problems, or affliction is bad, but none of these specs are based around outdated mechanics, in our case our main weakness is our demons, our pets.

And Let me elaborate this, they are our main weakness not because of their damage, or bad abilities(this is also a problem, but i will save it for another topic). Our main problem is really outdated and bad game code of our demons. And what i mean by game code… well it is really C++/Sharp or any other programing language that fuels the tech side of the game. Right now, all demonology demons has inefficient and bad code that backs them. Simple example is our control tools over our non main demons.
Just look at my attempts to control wild imps on my demonology warlock.

And how easily i can switch target of my ghouls on my unholy DK

It is true that you as demo warlock could switch targets of your imps if you will CAST SEVERAL SHADOWBOLTS at your desired target, but this is not execuse to have inferior control over your minions of one class, while the other has superior version of control.

Another major problem is that our demons are threat by developers as a simple DoTs with physical body. All our demons directly affect our combat state, if we in or out of combat. BUT none of them are able to proc any of our effects, trinkets, racials, Azerite traits, leech effects.
This creates a huge disadvantage to the demonology.

Let’s take as example vision of perfection azerite trait.

Any class/spec in the game is able to proc it with DoT damage, i have litteraly proced 3 infernals using only immolate, and infernals was spawned rom pereodical damage not from direct-initial damage.
But i as a demonology don’t have any baseline DoT spells, so i’m from the beginning cannot proc such effects as often as rest of the classes. And with in mind that your demons could be the source from 40% to 70% of your damage, you miss a fel tons of possibly good proc effects in combat.

Another problem is the Leech effect, no matter how much leech do you have, your demons will heal only themselfs, and not you. Your main demon, vilefiend, wild imps, tyrant all of them heal only themselfs, because their damage counts as a different source than yours. This fact alone is extremely lore and game-design unfriendly to the warlock. But with that fact in mind, for some reason, your demons directly affect your combat state, and if only one wild imp will be hitted by some random AoE damage, YOU won’t be able to leave combat until source of that AoE won’t be killed, or wild imp will despawn.

And main issue actualy lies in blizzard devs, i have one simple question for them - Why you not just designed warlocks around deeply flawed mechanics, but also made such bad job with technical design of the spells and all that surrounds Demonology?

You - Blizzard made a big decision in legion to revamp demonology, from Metamorphosis gameplay, the one that was maybe not really friendly for newcomers but had not over complicated design with really good and dept in gameplay mechanics, that didn’t heavily relied on such unreliable mechanic as Pets.

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Got all my spells macroed with /petattack so they swich target fast but ye AI in general stinks in wow and i like what you are saying here

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They’re not slow, the problem is that imps and dreadstalkers don’t follow the pet attack commands.
However as for pets not leeching life to you, i don’t know, should they? not all stats are equally useful for all specs

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Ok, leech we can keep aside, but what about the rest of effects?

Yeah it’s a tricky thing to balance and be mindful of, especially since you add effects like azerite powers in the middle of an expansion.
I don’t have any data to check and didn’t look it up, but do demo warlocks have lower uptimes on trinkets?

One thing i hate these days is that every proc has some behind the scenes calculation so you can’t really know how to approach it.
I don’t know if pets should proc trinkets, if they do it must be at a reduced rate, but then imps you have a lot of them so each type of demon would have their own chance? even more behind the scenes obfuscation.

My option would be to remove procs from dots and pets altogether, have procs occur on casts, based on cast time, unless specified otherwise.

Dreadstalkers have the best AI xD They can’t even reach the target which is moving

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yep i have posted this video several times.

Pets do not proc trinkets and essences, i left my char near target dummy for maybe a ~25 mins with my shivarra and wild imps (with inner demon talent) attacking dummy, none of them has launched a proc of any my trinkets. Diffirent test…a painfuly long one, has showed that dreadstalkers and vilefiend also doesn’t proc any of my effects. Next test has showed that none of demons from Inner demons talent and Nether portal talent was able to proc my effects.

P.S. After some test i figured out strange thing, Inner demons is actualy able to proc your enchantments and trinkets -BUT! But not with damage from imp’s fel-firebolt damage, but rather this talent proc effects when it summon wild imps. Quite not sure about additional demons, their proc chance is low and i didn’t saw them during test.

In the other hand, if our stats like haste, crit, mastery affects them, why their leech does not affect us? From lore perspactive, it won’t be something new for demonology, oldschool demonology always had ways to have symbiotic bond between you and your demons.
Right now, leech can turn every class that could benefit from it into unkillable monster in PvP, and only demo can’t actualy benefit from it, because YOUR main damage counts like it is not yours at all.

Sadly it doesn’t matter how many posts we will make, as long as some shiny streamer will get the beta, log the warlock and say: omg demo is so nice, cool spell effects.
Blizzard prefers to trust some youtubers rather than good players…

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The tragedy of my situation is that i stream PvP as DemoLock, but i’m a RUStreamer, so you know that chances that my voice will be heard is below zero)

We’d rather you didn’t play demonology.

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That crap continues from End of draenor!))

As has been stated in this thread: Our control over our pets and their AI is terrible.

Running/moving target? Dreadstalkers aren’t able to keep up and deal no/less damage than intended.
Heck, our main cooldown, Demonic Tyrant, is losing up-time on bosses if said boss is moved just a yard away when you’ve already summoned the Tyrant.

Unfortunately, there will be no overhaul in the middle of an expansion. That does however not excuse the developers for not hotfixing some of the problems.

A few things they could easily change:

  1. Give Demonic Tyrant a 100 yard cast range. No need to stop casting if it can cover the entire area.
  2. Give Dreadstalkers 200% movement speed. I mean… if most temporary pets can be considered DOTs, than my enemy should NOT be able to simply run away from the damage it deals.
  3. Make the Felguards target be the priority target for all summoned demons. This allows us to change the focus of our temporary pets to be quickly switched with either a /petattack macro or with Soul Strike. (Probably allow imps/tyrant to finish their cast onto their previous target, otherwise this mechanic will either be abused for greater Demonic Consumption %s or will result in more dps loss)

I do use Implosion in order to “redirect” my imp damage, but that feels like a poor excuse that wastes an instant cast, which is a dps loss without the Implosion azerite trait, just to be able to focus on a new priority target.

We are already a specc that has a huge build-up time to do our full dps on a target. No need to make that even more of a problem by having our target switching being a laborious task.

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Go play Classic :stuck_out_tongue: Demon start to fight after I cast 3 spells :stuck_out_tongue:

Using a macro such as:
/petattack
/cast Shadowbolt

This alleviates that particular problem in classic, @Hovnocuc

Though I imagine its better to put CoE or CoW there instead of shadowbolt

By default all pets use defensive mode, assist mode was not a thing in vanila, in agressive mode, your demon will attack first target that it sees in their agro range, and it won’t change target unless - 1) you change target manualy, 2) if target of the demon dies.
I may be wrong about agressive mode, but one thing is clear, unlike the retail WoW in the classic demons do not have delay in their AI behavior like they do in retail, they may stuck a bit only if they has killed target on the great distance of you, if they kill target in relative proximity of you, delay are not existent.

I realized the main issue with demons has been present since the talent tree system changed. With the old talent trees you could choose to spec into your demons or certain demons, like if I wanted to make my voidwalker really effective at tanking I could, I’ve actually made my Succubus in classic so powerful that she needs soothing kiss just to not take aggro sometimes, but she can hold her own very well.

In BfA however your demon has very few skills and is no longer a threat because in raids they do very little damage and can literally bug out completely on some mechanics, more diverse terrain in dungeons = pet pathing issues galore, and in PVP a demon can just be blasted down and that’s it they’re gone.

It’s about time Blizzard put as much effort into warlock demons as they’ve been putting into hunter pets.

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Not only swaping from old talents to new one is the problem.
Our main demons was nerfed in general. For example, demonology warlock in MoP or WoD didn’t had dedicated talents for demons outside of Grimoire of supremacy. However, normal demons - imp, voidwalker, succubus, felhunter and felguard, had a really decent damage output if warlock was in demonology spec. With grimoire of supremacy - fel imp, voidlord, Shivarra, observer and Wrathguard had increased damage ~30% and upgraded abilities, abilities had utilitarian type of enchantment. and if we take a look at top DPS demons of MoP Shivarra/succubus(ST) and Wrathguard/felguard(cleave or AoE), they always was on third or second place in warlock DPS.
Now in legion and BFA, their damage is significantly reduced, and on top of that we now have AI delay bug that cripples demons.

We lost tons of really needed spells like [Demonic Empowerment] https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Demonic_Empowerment

I highly doubt that, Blizz has already showed that no one in their class dev team are interested in warlock development. Our very design shows that no one is truly care about us. All specs use same gameplay pattern, demo mechanics are not working, lots of minor and major issues has infected our gameplay.

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That’s just your bad positioning and lack of CD planning.

Ok in static PvE encounters you may relly on your positioning skillset, but how about PvP? Right now when 80% of the classes can simply cross 40yd range in the matter of one or two GCD tyrant’s design is straightfoward liability for the warlock.

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