Orc stun resist racial has to go

[Windfurybtw-lone-wolf]

@Potatomilk-living-flame

ya because you’re just so above it all, aren’t you?
cringe bro.

No because it feels like I’m bashing my head against a wall to try and get simple points across.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

and only shaman orcs get hardiness. same thing, different race/class combo.

But orc shamans arent the only ones that get hardiness, that’s the actual difference 5 out of 8 classes can benefit from it compared to the LITERAL 1 on alliance.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

yeah, and this is disingenous too.
just because shadowmeld isn’t as useful for i.e a nelf warrior doesn’t mean its not useful at all (which is what you are implying, stop being cute) it just means its way more useful for a hunter, just like stun resistance is way more useful for a shaman, than berserking or warstomp is, in terms of pvp.

It has very niche uses compared to an overall blanket GOOD passive, yes you can get a charge from stealth in shadowmeld, yes you can defend a base in AB with shadowmeld to get the opener, but is it gonna be a swinging factor for a night elf warrior to a win a fight? No it isn’t. Stun resistance is good on Warrior, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Hunter in any fight that your opponent has a Stun. Shadowmeld is really only impactful on Hunter.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

no but we both know you really really want to, because that’s what alliance players do.
its as natural as breathing to them. ez scapegoat evri tiem.

If i was gonna complain about shaman you would see me crying about decoy totem not functioning like a traditional totem and its affects persisting after the totem has been killed. I’m not gonna use the class as a scapegoat, it has its problems sure, but so do boomies, spriests, rogues, hunters.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

your opponents greatest ally is your underestimation of them, don’t dismiss nelf just because they’re not meta for rogue.

nelf rogues are totally viable and they have advantages other rogues don’t get (such as better stealth) and an extra 1% dodge on top which is decent for rogues in particular.
rogues can be tanks now, so this is not to be scoffed at tbh.

that being said i think elves are cringe so i’d 100% go with dwarf for the aesthetics and that sweet sweet stoneform, because that’s just flat out better than an extra level of stealth and 1% dodge, in my personal opinion.

however, alliance kitties > horde kitties… so nelf druids > horde druids.

Every class and race combo is viable, but lets not kid ourselves and say anyone who first hand focuses on PvP picks Nelf unless they are hard for the RP aspect of it.

The extra stealth level is kinda negligible with the cloak that all rogues get for free.
The 1% dodge is nice sure I’ll give you that.

As someone playing feral, For pvp i’d rather be tauren, Warstomp, Bigger HP Pool. Way more useful in almost every practical scenario.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

so what you’re saying is nelf hunter, specifically, is OP and should be brought down to the level of every other class nelf can play?
seems we’re running into a lot of unique things related to the nelf racial that only hunters get to benefit from. seems unfair to me tbh.
100% agree with this sentiment.

Yes a hunter being able to feign death into shadowmeld is strong, is this as much of a problem if sniper training didn’t stack up in meld? Probably not so much…

@Potatomilk-living-flame

you can’t.
you drop combat then meld.
good hunters are capable of doing this regularly, other classes of nelf can too, if they are a ranged class.
the only class of nelf that pretty much cannot do it, is warrior, which is the only class of nelf that get absolutely shafted in regards to their racials since they don’t benefit from increased stealth and can’t/shouldn’t want to drop combat to meld.

arguably, this is something blizzard should look into as this sort of problem is pretty unique to nelf warriors… they pretty much gain nothing from their racials except 1% dodge and no other class/race combo has this type of problem… at least not that i can think of… i was about to say “its the equivalent of making a gnome warrior since they get nothing from the 5% intellect” but then it hit me that escape artist is omega good for warriors…

Hunters again, it’s mainly hunters that benefit from this and that’s because of the interaction between feign death and shadowmeld. I can’t get that benefit as a feral, or a warrior. In retail I can shadowmeld incoming chaos bolt, and actually drop combat with it in the middle of a fight going from a niche ability to actually useful and practical in almost any scenario for every class that can play nelf.

Gnome is usually the defacto warrior race purely for that reason Escape artist is insanely good for uptime on a class that is -usually- gimped for uptime with no in combat charge or root break, 2x charges in combat is a big QoL, warbringer helped lighten that load giving 2 root breaks. But escape artist is still very good.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

that’s because it is.
this is not an opinion, it is a fact.
of course you don’t LITERALLY resist every 4th stun used on you, that’s not how percentages work.

I am aware of how percentages work yes. I’m telling you that unless we sample size 100 stuns to even that out to every 1/4 there’s a good chance your 1 encounter with that person they will resist more than one of your stuns back to back. There will be some fights they resist none, and others they resist 2. I can run a dungeon for a 5% drop chance item and it drops 5 times in a row. I can run that same dungeon tomorrow and not see it at all. 25% is an extremely large variable and to deny its potency given this setting in WoW is kind of a fried take.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

yes it is.
i can link you the video.
its mega uncommon.
the sample size in my video is 400 stuns or something along those lines.
way more than the clips you’ve seen where the stars align perfectly for the orc, the rogue player is trying to stun.
my guess is you saw that guy in arathi basin trying to stun an orc at goldmine and failing all his attempts, a sample size of like 5 stuns, which is out-of-this world unlucky for the rogue. you probably couldn’t reproduce this scenario if you were given 500 attempts, that’s how rare it is.

If i had enough space on my computer to record my play sessions too see the amount of times warrior charge into bash/HoJ gets resisted, I just watch my 1min CD get eaten to air on a regular basis. This isn’t something that is new lol.

Those strings of insane bad luck happen and will be a deciding factor of you winning or losing, you outplay the person and get hit with a 2nd stun resist, Classic pvp is very on script for a lot of classes, it doesn’t feel good that you basically get outplayed by RNG dice roll. Such is the way of classic wow pvp. Outside of you pressing your buttons in response its layers upon layers of RNG. It is what it is.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

if this was true you wouldn’t even try to imply it is any more or less than 25% which is what 1/4 means.

Again I am very aware that 25% is 1 in 4 chance. I’m saying those strings of badluck happen. The sample size isn’t consistent enough every single BG, but there will be times you open same person they resist opener everytime, I am aware that is a 1 in 4 chance to happen. I am saying that those strings of bad luck exist and aren’t some freak phenomenon that happen once every 5 months of playtime.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

so rather than attempt to stun the orc coming to bonk your head in, you’d rather not try at all, which guarantees that he will bonk you…?

how much cd is HoJ again, 1 minute? 2 minutes? how in the world you’d hog an ability with such a low cooldown is wild.
it will be back up before you know it, perhaps even in the span of the same fight you used it in, depending on the scenario.
don’t sit on it, use it. if it doesn’t work, that’s when you gotta have a backup plan ahead of time… sometimes, winning in pvp requires pre-planning and taking a potential stun resist into account when you do the calculation in your head.

you know an orc is likely to resist a stun, so plan the fight keeping that in mind, and pull out an unexpected pocket sand trick when it does.
this is usually most effectively done using a profession related item, such as engineering items or consumables, but there are other tricks i’m sure not even a gigachad pro player like me is aware of.

I would rather trade SoJ in an attempt to stun the guy bonking me to get him off of me then waste 6sec stun 1 min CD to air.

I get HoJ on their healer, now it can’t be dispelled, won’t be resisted, healer is CC’d for 6 seconds, I’m not actively holding this CD for the foreseeable future lol, I’m just conscious of who to actually HoJ, that resist could throw a team fight. If I’m playing Hpal I have no repentance to fall back on, I have SoJ 2sec stun and HoJ, and being able to kite/use blessings etc, I usually play with a warrior friend so peeling for me isn’t a huge issue, hamstring/disarm/intimidating shout.

I check to see if there is magic dispel in the enemy group, and then pick prio target either healer or hybrid such as boomie etc if we aren’t the offensive side then I usually save HoJ for whoever extends from their team and try and help secure with that. If its an orc warrior smashing me in the face it’s almost always worth letting my team mate peel over wasting HoJ unless I’m literally gonna die and would trade a longer CD to try and survive.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

RMP meta proves you wrong.
WDW does too.
arena in tbc was a giga joke, trust me i played enh shaman back then.
never took arena seriously after TBC when i realized the game was rigged and the devs were incompetent.
“structure” my absolute … rear…

If you think classic pvp with terrible DR’s 40sec CC’s is actually “structured” pvp idk what to tell you lol. PvP has always been a sideline when it comes to WoW. But to think that arena in any of the future iterations of wow isn’t actually more skilled based and less RNG based is kinda wild. But maybe that’s because I actively played PvP in every expansion, It wasn’t just one bad expansion that tarnishes my view of it.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

ya, and then it eventually got removed entirely, along with every other racial in the game because blizzard decided to homogenize and retailify the game and now nobody wants to play it.

funny how so many people come back to a supposedly inferior version of the game, where racials “make and break” pvp and seems to be such a big issue as to literally make it unplayable… VERY FUNNY. VERY CURIOUS. WHAT A PHENOMENON.

Bro it is still in the game lol, it is just 10% Stun reduction now. Orc was the no brainer race for every retail pvper if you could pick it you played it. Nothing has changed my guy.

I came back to classic in 2019 when there was nothing for me to do in Retail, I did the same in SoD now I actively play both versions of the game since the season on retail has just begun.

I raid in SoD cause its chill and I like the people I play with, I can do everything I want in retail whenever I feel like it, I can queue pvp at any hour same deal with raid. I played WoW in 2004 racials etc is nothing new to me. I knew horde have better pvp racials. But when SoD is giving more flexability with racials (Priests gaining Fear ward even if not dwarf) Weapon skills becoming selectable, there were clear winners and losers of who got the better end of that deal with those changes.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

no it isn’t. its objectively garbage, hence why all the complaints stopped almost overnight after they nerfed it, because every alliance/arena andy were celebrating their free legup in pvp… the most ironic thing is that shortly after gutting hardiness, human were given “every man for himself” which is literally just a pvp trinket as racial, allowing humans to use double dps trinket and gain the most unfair advantage i’ve ever seen, and there are alliance players out there who will die on a hill defending that racial as if its not omegabusted levels of overpowered.

see this has been a trend throughout the years, and even now people are more than willing to ignore, or rather pretend that the strong aspects of their own class/race don’t exist, while pointing fingers at others at every chance they get.

My brother if it was objectively garbage we wouldn’t have had orc meta at the start of retails current expansion almost 20 years later lol, Every man for himself got changed again in later expansions to only getting you out of stuns, not a full freedom trinket, humans go back to wearing pvp trinket in retail. The WoTLK version of EmFH is insane yes. I am not denying that in the slightest.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/we-going-back-to-orc/435876/3

@Potatomilk-living-flame

my guy, they changed perception before removing it completely, this happened in TBC.
went from a passive racial to active ability you had to activate which is a huge nerf.
emfh was added in wotlk on top of perception.
perception was removed in cata.

so please clarify with a yes/no answer here; does that mean perception is OP?

Perception in classic, 3 min CD Dramatically increases stealth detection for 20 sec.
Perception in TBC, 3min CD Dramatically increases stealth detection for 20 sec.
Perception in WoTLK, Now a passive that increases stealth detection by 5 points, equivalent to 1 level.

Perception is an activated ability in the first 2 iterations of WoW, it was made a passive in WoTLK and removed in Cata.

So yes perception was nerfed to be a passive in favour of humans gaining EmFH.
In arena setting vs stealth classes yes Perception is OP.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

just to clarify, when i say things like “you people” or “people like you” i am referring to alliance players in the plural sense… its a sweeping generalization, admittedly. i live in the real world, not cotton candy land where generalization is considered taboo. that’s woke cringe i refuse to adhere to.

Well maybe just state it as the alliance rather than throwing around “people like me” if we are directly talking, Idgaf what race I play in game if something is subjectively bad for the game I will say it even if its about my own faction/race/class/spec.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

maybe not you personally, but your FELLOW ALLIANCE PLAYAS 100% yea.
i usually reserve personal judgement until i’ve had at least one long interaction (like we are having now) with someone… this is why i used Prey and Wavé as examples of noobs, because i know for a fact, based on experience, that they are.

See this is much better lol, word it as my faction rather than wording it like you are directing it at me.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

this is a big +.
rarely do i see people come around like this.
i apologize for any misunderstandings and unfair presumptions on my part.
however, that does not mean i agree with the sentiment that hardiness should be nerfed.
this is not a trade, if that’s the impression i am giving.
shadowmeld/sniper training should be nerfed, and hardiness should not “take a hit in return” based on some twisted sense of fairness.

I’ve played the game long enough to see when something isn’t healthy for the game. Stacking up one shots in stealth with little to no counter play is fried, its no different than the rapid fire shenanigans hunters were doing at the start of this retail exp which inevitably got nerfed too because the playstyle was bad for the game.

I’m not suggesting we nerf hardiness because of hunters not being able to gimp ppl from stealth from 42yds away as some form of fairness deal. I was merely stating the strength that hardiness has in todays setting of SoD. It felt like it was getting downplayed as not being strong when if anything it gained more value in SoD because of burst meta.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

this is a discussion i’d rather not have. you are right stoneform benefits rogues primarily, the ability to wipe bleeds, poisons, disease and blind (yes it affects blind too) is insane.
however, in the scenario where you are a dwarf facing an undead shadowpriest, your racial counters 2/3 of his dots; Void Plague and Devouring Plague… only shadow word: pain remains, so this racial basically counters an entire spec, but like i said, i’d rather not open this can of worms again, because we can go back and forth all day constructing pvp scenarios using varios class/race combos to try and make something look crazy op.

honestly, when it comes to racials in general i am the “just deal with it” type of guy. i know certain racials are annoying depending on perspective, and like… just deal with it bro. if orc is a problem for your stuns, use a different opener if you’re afraid he’ll resist your stun.

there are such a thing as builds that doesn’t revolve around stunlocking someone to death, they’re just not as meta as stunlock because that’s a surefire build against anything that isn’t an orc (hence the tears because it bothers them that their stunlock doesn’t work all the time every time).

And that is fair enough we don’t need to debate every single racial in the game here, I’m fully aware it gets you out of blinds and is one of the main reasons you would opt into picking dwarf, is so you counter other rogues for resets. If this was classic era I would be agreeing with you a lot more. But it wiping out 2 dots when SW:P homonculi are enough to keep people in combat till stoneform wears off, one psychic scream is 8 sec… disperse etc, all freedom trinket, stoneform is good but nothing compared to classic era.

I play feral, I have pounce stun from stealth and bash, my class really isn’t based around stunlocking anyone to death, but my dmg output relies heavily on my target giving me their back, which any competent player won’t do. So when your whole burst relies on being behind a target, the stun is kinda important. In team fight I’m probably in bear anyway so if bash gets resisted it doesn’t matter so much, I can still frontline with mangle, but solo as cat with no interrupt it kinda sucks. If I take interrupt I lose mangle which is objectively the only ability I can press that does dmg in cat if they don’t give me their back…

@Potatomilk-living-flame

ok, like i said, i’ll apologize for any offense given on my part, but you must understand; i have been dealing with some seriously dented and unreasonable people in this thread, and i thought you were “just another one of those guys” if you catch my drift.

I get it, I read the posts on here too and some of the takes are actually mentally draining to read at times. It be like that some times. I apologize for coming across as an A-hole too.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

yeah but i generally discount all consumables when discussing pvp balance, because consumables is not part of any class/race combo and they cost money.

the truth of the matter in regards to pvp is that most problems can be solved if you’re willing to invest a ton of gold into FAPs, LIPs, LAPs, Swiftness pots, thistletea, fire/nature/frost/shadow protection pots, engineering tools etc. etc. because at that point it simply becomes a matter of coinpurse vs coinpurse.

I would discredit catseye elixirs tbh but you said it yourself most people are gonna be running engi so catseye goggles really isn’t outta the element of expectation for someone caring enough to min max pvp racials etc.

Which for the discussion we are having is pretty relevant.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

wotf is 2 minutes, lasts 5 seconds.
bracers is 10 minutes, lasts a whopping 15 seconds. bracers is just more bang for your buck in trade for a longer cooldown.
its short cd is the only advantage wotf has over the bracer.

its 5 seconds but unless you are getting chain CC’d with fear being able to break out of a full duration fear every 2 minutes is insane value. The initial break of fear gives you room to counter play almost every time. The short CD is every advantage tbh. 15 seconds is nice but its overkill.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

ya ok, granted wotf is not “completely useless” which if i said that, i’ll walk back on.
the argument i meant to make is that its less so useful when the bracers exist, and that doesn’t mean “useless”
there’s a huge difference between “useless” and “less useful”. if i used the word “useless” that was probably a mistake on my part or a straight up intentional exaggeration.

Given the choice between both the bracers or WoTF, I would personally take WoTF every single time, the bracers are nice but the cooldown is too long for it to be something you can rely on. WoTF will almost be up for every other engagement you have. But yes I would agree with the introduction of the bracers the racials isn’t quite as lucrative as it once was. But I would argue the racial beats the bracers purely off the fact you can break 5 fears with WoTF before the bracers come back off CD.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

i won’t. its just that charm effects are basically non-existent in my experience.
sleep effects that isn’t a druid sleeping another druid or a shaman in ghost wolf form is also pretty rare to see.
this sort of stuff is referred to as “hidden tech” among pvp pros… a recently noteworthy one being magic dust from dust devils in Westfall.

There is a chest piece from emerald wardens rep that sleeps you now, available to cloth and leather users iirc, you also have warlock succubus seduce which can be very annoying to deal with at times. But the chest piece from emerald wardens is what comes to mind the most. It has no ICD and can sleep back to back if you get unlucky. Druid FC’s have been using it a lot lately.

@Potatomilk-living-flame

right, like i said earlier, this is mostly directed at those who are straight up hostile towards me (since they are usually pretty dense and unreasonable).

I came across like a d-bag anyway so its mostly my fault. I don’t like arguing on the forums but when it comes to stuff in regards to balancing or something about the health of the game long term I will tend to chime in on things and try and be as non biased as possible. I want SoD to be fun for the remainder of its existence tbh. If there are things like sniper training shadowmeld that just promote some degenerate gameplay then get rid of it. No one liked boomkin meta at start of p2, or hunter pet meta the start of p1, there are very obvious and glaring issues out there between certain classes and balancing. But I’m not gonna start advocating we change anything until we get full runes and full talents to see what we are actually working with. If there is something truly degen, like hunter meld sniper combo, decoy totem basically being undispellable freedom persisting through totem death, then yeah it should be changed. It’s not healthy for the game. I’m all for shamans having decoy totem but it should function like a regular totem. Remember in p1 when pala avenger shield was putting undispellable daze on people? Yeah it’s stuff like that.