Orcs vs Humans

We already had players of the same faction killing each other, during MoP.
I was playing on a friend’s account. His guild had transferred from Horde to Alliance.
I was trying to gear up a Human Mage at the time. So they sent me to that small island.
It was a complete nightmare. Having to be on lookout 24/7 for Horde, trying to gank you, but also the Alliance players farming blood coins for the mount.
So killing your own in the outside world isn’t something new.
I was even killed by my own guild members as some sort of prank.

Yup, PVP servers. Seen that and not going to do that again.

Cheers.

It’s not new. But it’s stupid. It has always been stupid. You can certainly do it sometimes, for the lols but all the time? Hell no.

They’re gone for good.

I will also add that this 2 modes are highly dependent of faction balance, unlike arenas.

Going back to MoP, it wasn’t fun getting ganked all the time by Horde players, with none to help you. Not to mention the times you get run over by groups.

I don’t think I ever saw in that month, I played in that PVP server one Alliance player coming to help me. I suppose the same is valid for the Horde side.

In Vanilla, Alliance had longer queued, because Alliance outnumbered Horde in Kul-Tyras server. We even had Alliance premade coming to Ogrimmar to complain about lack of Horde players in the queue for level 60 BGs.
Yeah, if you aren’t getting opponents, that rank 14 isn’t going to come up anytime soon.

Add that, the fact that we now have cross servers, when we enter instances, like LFD, LFR and any PVP instance content.
If it wasn’t for that, I believe the faction imbalance would be even more evident.
Less players, results in more people transferring to the more populated faction, which in turns results in a poor faction experience in Warmode and PVP content.

Cheers.

Very specific cases.

Who exactly created the conflict in the first place? Not anyone in what would become the Alliance who were unaware of the existence of Orcs until the Dark Portal opened. Not the Orcs even who were being lied to by Kil’Jaeden. Until he did this the Orcs were a peaceful shamanistic tribal species. It was Legion that literally caused their blood to boil and for them to turn against the Draenei, refugees to their world, with whom they’d co-existed in a relative peaceful way. Meanwhile on Azeroth, Medivh got manipulated into helping the Legion and helped in the creation of the Dark Portal and foregoing his duty as a Guardian he stood by as the Orcs invaded. The original occupants of Azeroth could only do what any invaded nation does and work on defending itself. The haze of the blood boil faded when the Legion was defeated for now and then the Orcs sought a new home for themselves…

So, in fact, it’s the Legion (and other outside forces) who turned the Orcs and Humans against one another. In fact, based on the past 3-4 expansions worth of conflict we’ve all discovered, for the most part, the true villains and defeated them. We’ve solved the conflict that pitted us against one another. Well, at least for the most part…

In the “battle for Azeroth” it wasn’t really a battle of who of us was entitled to Azeroth, whether it was the Alliance or the Horde that was entitled to control it. It was the battle to pry Azeroth, or to be precise the world-soul, from the cold fingers of all other outside forces (Legion, Void, Light, even the Titans) and to be in control of it ourselves. The battle for Azeroth wasn’t with the other factions deceived by outside forces but ALL OF US against those outside factions to stop them controlling our world, or any of us.

Cold logic, however, does not account for the power of free will. It’s up to each of us to prove this is a world worth saving.

Maybe we have yet to discover the power of free will. When we do we prove that not only Azeroth but all our species living on her are worth saving. It’s a personal choice to believe in peace or war. One of these paths will, based on past events, only ever lead to an outside force manipulating us and using us for their own gain. Maybe such outside forces NEED us to be in conflict with one another. Being different doesn’t mean we need to be buddies. We can be two opposing paths with the same end goal which is to keep ourselves safe and our enemies at arm’s length when we have peace. :wink:

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If not, the Forge of Origination is still there to eradicate all life in the world, allowing it to start anew
Algalon the Observer not died and still watching… After his “defeat”, Algalon remained in Ulduar to monitor the activities of the mortal races on Azeroth (and become a pet tamer, having grown bored by the inactivity in Ulduar)
We are one pushing of a button away from extermination actually

The best and only conclusion you can give regarding that topic. Cheers!

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This does not even make any sense. They have become stronger because the narrative needed them to be, not because logic dictates they do. Because looking at it objectively, the faction conflict would have ended with Garrosh in Cataclysm.

As Amazoner has already pointed out, the Horde was on the brink of extinction at the end of WC3. I think there have been just enough Orcs to fill 3 Alliance ships. As a comparison, the Mary Rose would have had a crew of roughly 500 men. And having seen those older ships from the inside, 500 people would have been a very cramped scenario already. Even the HMS Victory - a much larger vessel - is already a nightmare for claustrophobic people with a normal set of visitors.
If they had to cram in any more, I’d say we would be looking at no more than maybe 2000 Orcs over 3 ships. At best.
The Tauren had been facing defeat at the hands of the centaurs, until the Orcs bailed them out. Likewise for the Darkspear. The OG Horde at the start of vanilla was in a very bad place. You don’t grow an army to basically conquer both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms in 5 years. Not even Orcs mature that fast.

Population size aside, there is also the issue of resources. In case you don’t realise - you need resources to build equipment. And Garrosh’s Goblin tech was not only built with wood the Horde doesn’t have, it was also large amounts of steel the Horde wouldn’t have access to. And even then, you do not magick an entire world ending army out of your buttocks within a couple of months. You need production facilities - which the Horde did not have. You need resources - which the Horde didn’t have. You need skilled workers - which the Horde, again, didn’t have. Peons don’t build cannons.
Goblin engineers are one thing, but if you do not have access to skilled labour, the best engineers will not help put together thousands and thousands of very intricate weapons.

So, Garrosh managed to stamp out an army big and geared up enough to not only withstand a world ending threat (Deathwing and Old God cultists), but also launch a full scale attack on the Alliance no only in Kalimdor, but also the Eastern Kingdoms and win those attacks.
The constant fighting between the factions have only made the Horde stronger because the writers said so. Because the writers needed the Horde to be stronger. If you notice, the Alliance gets weaker with every iteration of the faction conflict. They’re the “turn the other cheek” faction and Blizzard has run out of cheeks to give.

I would agree that conflict strengthens societies. However, the issue I have with this approach is the complete absence of any realism as to how things are described in lore. If the Horde are scrappy underdogs trying to survive, then how do they suddenly have an army to both defeat the established Alliance forces and withstand Deathwing’s attacks? If they are starved for resources and never had to construct anything more complex than a simple axe and mud huts, how do they suddenly construct fortresses out of steel and basically modern weapon systems? With the Alliance it makes sense, both Dwarves and Gnomes have a long history of building “fantasy high tech” weapons. This is why the Alliance is a force to rival the Horde to begin with - what they lack in individual strength they make up for in numbers and tech. Giving the Horde access to both numbers and tech out of the blue completely destroys and even reverses the power dynamic, making the Alliance the scrappy, lovable underdog instead.
For me, Cataclysm completely destroyed the Horde I loved by turning them into an oppressive fascist regime. The Horde I loved before was built on honour and the bond and loyalty between brethren. Blizzard took that and threw it out the window because a fascist Horde would make for a much cooler metal album cover.

But anyway. The conflict can only be kept going because the writers keep magically adding technology and population to the Horde, neither of which they should realistically have access to. Yes, conflict will spurn research and after conflict birth rates increase dramatically - but we are talking about a new world war every 2-3 years, with world ending non-faction-war related threats sprinkled in between. You realise that the pauses in between conflicts, which would usually lead to an explosion of population and technology, are being filled with “PvE conflicts”, which in turn further diminish the population? With all that’s been happening to Azeroth in the last 20 years, there should be no sentient life left on the planet because the constant ongoing warfare would have eradicated everyone.

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The simple fantasy of Orc vs Human crumbled once the story got intergalactic with Warcraft-Thanos/Space-Satan and all his alien buddies, not to mention Titans, Voidlords, etc. etc.

The scope is too vast for a simple zugzug vs yes milord story.

To be fair, it is started as intergalactic
WC1’s story even back then in its manual was about Orcs from Draenor, a different planet, invaded the world via basically a stargate, the Dark Protal; not from Hell, not from another plane of existance, not from another reality or conitnent… from another planet from the other end of the unvierse

Me not that kind of orc!

I really hope they wont do cross faction pvp …

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Yes it is good for dungeons and raids but it should stop there…

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You don’t want faster queues?

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I’m agree with this orc.

There are other ways to fix it without having to kill the factions.

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The factions have been dead since the WC-series, regardless of how many times the devs tries to reanimate it with conflicts and wars.

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This is where your argument dies

At least in last xpac we had some faction lore characters, Sylvanas, Anduin, Bolvar, Baine and so on…this time nothing, all gone, only old Khadgar with us…:blush:

Sorry this two words are not go well together in a sentence

I think Sylvanas , like her or not, is a great part of wow lore…

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