Outlaw need help please blizzard lets fix more things for 11.05!

Classes Rogue
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Feedback and hopes for some further improvements for Outlaw in 11.05:

Deft Maneuvers:
Deft Maneuvers does not work, the Blade Flurry initial hit damage is not increased, even though the tooltip states its supposed to increase by 100%, atrocious lies!

The initial damage is the same whenever you talent into Deft Maneuvers or not, please update the tooltip and remove the ‘Blade flurry’s initial damage is increased by 100%’ if this is not true and intended.

Lucky Coin:
Lucky Coin capstone for Fatebound does not work consistently, hitting 7+ coins back to back and half the time it does not activate Lucky Coin, time to fix this once and for all in 11.05.

It is happening for sure in this situation:
Lucky coin will consistently fail to proc if you double jeopardy from 6 to 8 coins.

Additionally please increase the downtime timer to 30seconds, 15seconds is too short considering the distance we have to run between packs in many dungeons, and if the tanks are RP walking, otherwise you’ll force rogues to play slightly toxic and we will have to pull for the tanks using tricks + evasion to maintain it! Already having it drop off is extremely painful as a result of the bug where Lucky Coin doesn’t proc consistently too, so please help us out here.

Killing Spree:
Killing Spree needs to actually be on your Radar, no iterations for 11.05 suggest that this ability has been ignored and its in desperate need to be modernised and remove all the huge inaccessibility issues affecting this ability, such as nausea inducing camera movement, suicidal teleportation mechanics, etc.

Almost zero people are playing the Trickster Zero Tree for Outlaw in Raids and M+ due to Killing Spree being very unsuitable for pretty much most of the bosses. Time to dissolve the toxic gameplay and revitalise it with something cool! Simple improvements such as making Killing Spree a full ranged ability (Bullet Hail inspirations, or Bullet Dance (Haze’s ultimate from Deadlock), back to back pistol attacks rather than teleporting melee attacks would significantly improve this ability and can’t imagine something as simple as this would be hard to implement. If you go down the Bullet Dance route, it could just be like bladestorm, but with pistols.

Example of Bullet Dance for Killing Spree fix:

It doesn’t have to have a range this big in the video, something like 12 yards around you is perfectly fine. If you go for a single target route of back to back pistol shot spam on the target, then continue to interact with Blade Flurry, maybe consider adding some interesting damage bonus like (while Blade Flurry is active, hit all targets around you and ignore the silly hard cap of 7 additional targets… or maybe give Blade Flurry a soft cap again (damage reduced beyond 8 targets thingy)).

Additionally, possibly consider adding Killing Spree to UHUH (to freeze the duration of AR during Killing Spree). This will make it feel better to play while we are locked out of performing actions for a couple seconds?

Adrenaline Rush:
2nd Charge of Adrenaline Rush would be much appreciated with our current Outlaw gameplay, being able to continue to contribute to the CDR while AR is ready, when we already have AR up still due to good moments would be nice for extra flexibility and power for our CDR gameplay, and it’ll also further mitigate against our weakness of being hugely reliant on constant uptime. It’ll make Acro slightly less missed too, I’m sure you’d like this.

Supercharger Outlaw:
Supercharger still needs a look at for Outlaw, RTB is not a good design choice for this talent, please consider attaching it to Adrenaline Rush or Vanish please:

When playing Keep It Rolling (KIR), we refrain from using RTB for extended periods of time because we often lock in our buffs using KIR, and then we want to avoid overriding those extended buffs boosted by KIR, therefore Supercharger being on RTB is quite restrictive for Outlaw in these circumstances. Being on Adrenaline Rush or Vanish would make Supercharger more interesting for our current gameplay of doing extra damage during Subterfuge (higher CP crackshot/BTE means higher ace proc chance, more resets more fun!).

  • It’s still a shame Echoing Reprimand is being removed, it was a fun ability with a bit of a mini game feel, which made the spec a bit more interesting and required some cognitive ability to execute so it felt fun to play with.

Fazed for Outlaw Trickster:
Its impossible to AOE-apply Fazed as Outlaw, but Sub rogue can, is this intentional??? Again probably another reason to update Killing Spree into a nice ability that can actually do AOE damage.

Greenskin Wickers:
Greenskin Wickers talent (GSW) needs a bit of love too, its basically useless atm. Or just remove it and give us a nice new talent thats competitive and interesting too. Its been dead for a long long time.

11.05 has some positives!
Regardless of the feedback above, I’m still looking forward to 11.05, some good changes especially the BTE reset change (lets be honest this was needed 4 tiers ago when Crackshot was first implemented to help address the endless and seemingly unfixable bugs we’ve had to suffer for nearly a year).

Thank you Devs for the good work :slight_smile:, looking forward to hearing back :wink:

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Additional thoughts from Weran on NA:

Lucky Coin
This is potentially the most frustrating hero tree capstones in the game. It is fully possible (even in sims) to go an entire boss fight not seeing a proc. That means for a full raid fight you will have gotten zero value out of our hero tree capstone. There is no way to game this or force it. In m+ this happens far more frequently as mentioned, its easy for the buff to drop off then never proc again for several minutes.

This capstone has no animation, no gameplay, doesn’t work if you ever skip past the 7th coin and might not even proc on a normal pull of proper gameplay. Please heavily consider looking at this for a redesign.

Supercharger Outlaw:
Lets talk a bit more about this new central node we have on the tree. Sub and sin both got this passive set as a proc off a spell they already cast at the beginning/middle of their burst damage sequences. This makes supercharged a fully passive node that automatically adds more strength into their burst windows where they want it. Very well designed, good job for them.

For outlaw, the ability choice for this node does not make sense. RtB has its own set of rules based off buff values, while this node would get its MAXIMUM value when pressing RtB as often as possible. This means we have two sets of optimization pulling in opposite directions, rolling for multiple buffs vs spamming rolls to proc more supercharger.

This could potentially work for some brand new, not currently existing outlaw build that wants to spam rolls. However supercharger itself would probably need to be more valuable for this to happen. Whats confusing is we have had a standard, well liked by many in the outlaw community ER build for 2 expansions now. KiR build uses ER to help with its high variance CP generation and provide a level of rng protection to its crackshot windows. KiR is a build that focuses on stacking buffs and extending them, which you cannot do with an ability that wants you to frequently Reroll.

Why does the new “ER” work directly in opposition to the primary build that has been playing it for 2 expansions? Was it designed with the intention of not being taken as KiR anymore and making a third build we’ve never played? This feels like a large miss to me as there is already a choice node on this path that currently does not do anything. You choose between more passive damage after pressing Rtb, or more passive damage after pressing Rtb. Neither option lets it mesh with KiR, and at current design its looking like KiR might even drop this entire node path to pick up lethality or vigor. Please strongly reconsider what spell supercharger is procc’d off of for outlaw.

Greenskin Wickers:

This talent could really use a full redesign. As is, this is effectively a passive damage node competing with other stronger nodes (ghostly strike). It does not add anything to the rotation or have any fun rules, for the part of the tree that is meant to represent the gunplay aspect of outlaw, this is a big letdown. It was exciting as a new legendary back in the day but it has not aged well with new design. Personally I see this as a potential place for adding blue CP back for outlaw, proccing off empowered PS or something of that nature.

4 Likes
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Good read, I do like a lot of points, like the increased out-of-combat duration for lucky coin, 15 seconds is really short.

The stacks absolutely need to be fixed, having to hold back finishers at 7 stacks until it pops is super annoying. And the fact it doesn’t pop at all at 8 stacks.

I’ve gotta admit, I love killing spree. Always have always will. But I can absolutely see its pitfalls.

I do like the pistol aoe idea, reminds me of Reaper’s Death Blossom.

Greenskins is trash for the simple fact the 200% only works on your next pistol shot. If you use opportunity after a BTE, it only affects the first shot… I thought the other 2 were free. 200% on all 3 shots would pump it up a bit, but honestly, I would prefer the triple pistol shot to be changed back into the blunderbuss from back in Legion. 3 - 4 shots simultaneously so Greenskins increases the whole ability. (when I say blunderbuss I don’t mean a proc inside a proc like the original iteration, that was dumb, I mean you get an opportunity proc, you then use BTE, and it converts it into a blunderbuss proc)

Personally, I would like to see a return of greed procs, there was something so satisfying about that echo sound after you used a finisher. Aoe was nice too.

My biggest hope besides the fixes is for them to decouple crack shot from vanish and add it to something else, maybe a dread blade Esq ability that gives you X stacks. Builders consume a stack giving max combos. While you have a stack, BTE does not trigger its cd. (It would need to be off the GCD for it to work though.) It would also extend your burst window with ace up your sleeve to better utilise AR’s duration.

It’s nice to see other ppl thinking about the spec

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I appreciate your positive feedback, and there are good ideas and points in there Vurai, but I don’t think Blizzard is deserving any at this point. I admit trying to come up with a bunch of good ideas and having them accepted and approved at a big game company such as Blizzard may not be an easy thing, however, it’s very easy to see the glaring issues and the core class bugs, if you at least play test the class that is.

There is no good work on Blizzard’s part here, we are equally paying customers as those who are playing paladins, DKs, mages, resto shamans etc. And we should have the freedom to play what class/spec we love to play without getting the short end of the stick, or trying to work around the core class/spec bugs ourselves for so long.

Personally, I am not giving Blizzard benefit of the doubt anymore. They almost destroyed the D4 Franchise, and I really do hope they would do the same to WoW by exactly doing what they are doing right now. I think it’s what they deserve.

Even on paper, if a bunch of players can come up with much better ideas then the game/class designers themselves, and point out the issues with the existing design so clearly, then it’s a big - but a recurring problem - for Blizzard, a problem they are failing to solve for a long while now.

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Honest opinion: They should put Supercharger on Blade Flurry. Short CD, you wanna spam it anyway and it would feel really good.

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Bump:

Blizzard please try to take a look at the bugs around Deft Maneuvers not working correctly, the increased damage portion does not work at all.

Fix the re-stealthing issue, where if you have an ongoing Subterfuge, and you re-stealth during it, Adrenaline Rush will start to tick down its duration again for 2-3 seconds. This is a huge detriment and means we can’t vanish at the last moment during a trash pack to protect AR from dropping off, and then re-stealthing right after the last mob dies and jump into stealth again before the tank pulls the next pack, without risking AR dropping off due to this bug.

Its been around for a super long time so hoping to raise awareness if the bug is not known for some reason amongst the devs, but I’m assuming its another one of those bugs you guys can’t figure out how to fix!

Lucky Coin is still a pain in the butt, its short duration to drop off is still very toxic in pug environments, and the proc doesn’t work consistently, so it feels very frustrating to play with when it barely or doesn’t proc during raid boss fights or M+. Fix the bugs!

Killing Spree still needs saving, its unusable in raid without hard trolling your group, but I gotta admit its pretty fun when you wanna troll and deplete keys for fun/memes! I’ve managed to use it to assassinate other players and teams by using it to randomly throw targeted spells and pop fixates accidentally during the Killing Spree process, super thrilling, but generates big anger and confusion from others!

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