Paladin feedback for retail after playing WOTKL (again)

Classes Paladin
1

Inspired after playing WTLK I have some Question to devs:

How come the class that gave so many nice raid/party utility during WTLK is so useless nowdays? How come even pure dps specs to give more raid buffs and do more damage nowdays.

Why can’t specs share raid buffs/utility like in the past (e.g ret/moonin haste ,ret/warrior AP during wtlk).

Why Chaos Brand, Attack power etc can only come from 1 CLASS?

How come we don’t have a single Party/Raid defensive utility, why we couldn’t keep AM while other not-so-hybrid specs have their raid utility.

Why you don’t share some of the raid buffs between melee specs so everyone has a chance for the few spots melee get in a 20man comp?

e.g
DH/Ret → 5% magic
War/ whatever-> AP
Monk/whatever-> w/e
etc etc

This alone would add so much flexibility when making a 20man comp, it would make life easier when rotating people also. Why we still have to have “locked” spots for specific classes?

Take some inspiration its not so hard to solve core retribution paladin problem which is that he is basically a useless spot for a 20man comp.

WOTLK retri raid buffs shared with other classes

Heart of the Crusader provides the 3% raid crit debuff. This is shared by: Feral druids, warriors, and warlocks.

Improved Blessing of Might provides the improved attack power buff. This is shared by DPS warriors

Sanctified Retribution provides 3% damage to the raid. This shares with Beastmaster Hunters and Arcane Mages.

Judgements of the Wise This is a replacement to TBC’s shadow priest effect, and provides a constant tick of mana to the raid. This is shared by Shadow Priests, Survival hunters, Destruction Warlock, and Frost Mage

Swift Retribution provides a 3% haste buff to all raid members. This is shared with Boomkin.

Why this flexibility does not exist nowdays when there are even fewer melee spots?

7 Likes
2

The idea is kinda great but also show’s the the issue with bring the player not the class: If class balance in terms of active utility (short terms buffs and cc) and dps is bad there’s no reason to bring the class.
If you need a class or at least one of the two for buff X the class has a reason to exist even when the class under performs.

3

It amazes me that these flat raid buffs exist in the first place. They shouldn’t be
part of the game at this point and if they are they should offer at least 1 class alternative so guild rosters have variety.

Even if DH is still the best option to bring on 1st kill then you could rotate another class (Ret pala etc) for the 2nd kill or as backup (instead another …DH) without leaving the raid without such a crucial buff.

I really dont understand how class designers dont see that even lower ranked guild dont have any reason to bring a Retri paladin unless its toping the meters which was never the case because we were supposed to have some other raid utility which is non existent at this point or situational or competing with 2 other paladin specs or compromising Rets dps.

I am sure after dragonflight raid buff changes (rogue/druid) they just consider Retri a leveling spec at this point. Mythic raid viability is at point 0.

4

Paladin needs a proper party buff and a proper gap closer.

Just give us a magic defense buff and a root and we gucci.

5

Personally I don’t care about a root effect we don’t need that but a better cap closer and defense. Bubble is so outdated and the cooldown is to long.

6

Pvp also counts…

7

It doesbt though.

Say they give you as a paladin the ability to provide DHs abilities. Your competing with 2 tank speccs and a healer to provide that utility.

Which means ur unlikely to be the best candidate to provide that utility.

The moment a vengence dh becomes meta. Ret paladin will be tossed out same with holy and prot paladin will toss them out. Just like it benchs havoc unless their dps is top tier.

The issue is the same across the board with all hybrid speccs.

You provide the utility in core roles, while warlocks etc etc cannot. So they get leverage in the dps role over you.

Due to this. Generally you as a dps are only becoming meta based on yoyr damage profile and where u are compared to other options.

Cuz if ur dps bad, then they will throw you to a tank or healer role to provide that utility and play the top dps.

Ret would need to bring vital utility itself, but then every dps that can currently be replaced by its tank/healer counterparts would demand tbe same and itd get very restrictive.

8

It doesbt though.

Say they give you as a paladin the ability to provide DHs abilities. Your competing with 2 tank speccs and a healer to provide that utility.

First off the raid buff shared across melee will either come from tank or melee role. Holy is out of the picture here.

Second we are not talking about World first comp here. Yes if DH damage is crap and DH tank is good, prot tank average, retri average obviously for the top 50 ? 100??? guilds a DH tank would be preferable to bring the buff.

But for guilds that are just competitive and have some good players that just wanna have the option to play ret, not going with the absolut Meta is not an Issue AS LONG AS they are not compromising the whole raid when that happens.

Currently swapping a DH for a RET even on farm/rotation for a competitive guild compromises the whole raid because we bring absolutely nothing. We have spots locked by either DH, Monk, War sometimes Enh and now Rogue and rotating a melee that brings NOTHING is a luxury. Also many less hardcore guilds need 2 of each players bringing critical raid buffs in case someone cant attend raid, has vocation etc, so having a 2nd DH, war,monk etc will always be preferable to ret as things are.

Even if lets despite DH is meta the RET in that top200-1000 guild is better player than the DH and can produce 90ish% logs and catch up with the meta damage of an 75-80ish% DH the spot will still be locked because of how important buffing the whole raid is.

Retri and even Feral druid having a raid buff shared with other melee will add flexibility and more options for the majority of raiding guilds that wanna do Mythic without compromising the raid.

Last argument is SOMETHING is better than NOTHING :stuck_out_tongue:

9

the issue is, The game only actually has 9 Dedicated buffs in it. and some of those Overlap

Monk - Physical Damage.
DH - Magical Damage
Warrior - Str buff
Mage - Int + BL
DK - AMZ + CR
Warlock - CR / Gates / Stones

at maximum u could only expand this as far as 9 if u swallowed the ENTIRE utility into ur DPS Roster and 0 into tanks… because i dunno? you decided to Stack 2 Prot Paladins as Tanks, and then Stack 4 Resto Druids for funzy.

if u look at the number 1 parse (Randomly chosen) for vigilant Guardian.

the run has -

3 Warlocks
3 Monks
2 DHs
1 Rogue
3 Priests ( 2 of which are shadow )
2 DKs
1 Retribution Paladin

thats ALOT Of overlap here for something u call a Luxery.

its not a situation of Luxery, the problem is. Paladins Design is Outdated its a Mid Pack DPS and Melee.

in a Melee Role. it does need to be unique, and while sure we can say anythings better then nothing. and thats true, it’ll make u feel abit better about playing a Ret. but i cant see it improving the situation.

this is mostly affecting PuGs… Guild raids etc etc Plenty of Rets raid… pretty Equal to most other Melee DPS Speccs, its only ranged classes mainly reaching over 3k Parses.

Most melee classes are 1.3k - 1.8k Rets included.

Devs need to Wake the hell up. and Rework Ret, it needs ALOT More help thjen being slapped with a Magical Damage buff, because seriously im on beta. ur Chances of competing with a DH Is 0. they’re OP AF right now.

Ret has 0 mobility, it falls behind, It has a harder job escaping Mechanics due to its lack of Mobility. It doesnt do enough damage to be offering 0 utility. and its a Damn paladin. why doesnt it have Utility. lol.

Rets Massive issue is primarily M+ COntent… because its Slow, it cant escape mechanics Easily, in mobile fights it struggles to keep uptime like other classes and then ye PuG Raids also.

it needs sooo much more, and so much feedbacks been given at this point.

1 Like
10

This ^

Rets outdated toolkit and more raid buffs available is one reason why ret feels so much better in wotlk.

The heal is powerful enough and the toolkit isn’t as outdated as on retail.

11

Its sad, in the same patch rets been left to come in with a Singular CR… they prove they can create Unique and Vast utility In their evoker design… seems a Slap in the face for a class waiting for a Lift for 6 years now.

12

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