Paladin for All. Wishlist Megapost

Argent Dawn
121

You posted your interpretation of a book, that isn’t a source.

  1. First of all, the book is focused on describing sensations and the thoughts of Paladins, but it’s never stated that the source of the paladin’s Light is entirely within that ritual, which is what would have to be if you’re drawing this distinction between Sunwell as a source and SH’s rituals as its own special source.
    → and neither the ritual as a source of power is described well, for its described by the thoughts and sensations of the paladins who take it

  2. If anything, the lore tells us that the paladins’ thoughts about the ritual aren’t accurate. Tirion Fordring acquires his Light powers even after being stripped of the ritual’s blessings, and everyone believed he would not have access to these powers anymore. Instead, he manages to retrieve his powers with faith and is a Paladin just fine, even without the ritual’s blessings. In fact, we know a paladin’s own faith and willpower still plays a part in how they can call up to the Light - as Arthas, who underwent the same ritual, lost his powers as he doubted himself; same goes for Jorad Mace. So, yes, this ritual doesn’t look like the major source that you make it up to be. If anything the lore tells us that the ritual is secondary to become a Paladin, and that faith and willpower are the true source of power, even for the Silver Hand’s Paladins.

  3. The other problem I have with that quote is about the elves - you’re saying the magic does not reside within them all the time and as proof you point at their source, the Sunwell, which if anything we know all blood elves are bound to the Sunwell all the time, and the connection should last as long as the Sunwell works - this thing that it doesn’t reside within them 24/7 as opposed to the paladins of the Silver Hand isn’t something you know, it’s just something you’re making up because it suits your vision.

I put forward that this is all speculation but - we know that often, prolonged usage of most types of cosmic magic, especially when it’s channeled within your body, has a tendency to change you: you feel more attuned to that magic and you develop a greater affinity for it.

We know it works for mages, void-users, warlocks and druids.

It would therefore be perfectly logical that, based on the above premise, the more a Paladin uses the Light, the stronger his/her bond grows, thus as they develop a greater affinity for the Light it changes them. Over time, it begins to change their inner and outer world too, a change based on the Light’s properties: their soul gains a greater resolve to fight what they perceive to be injustice, the Light they call upon gives them greater resolve, turning into a familiar, ever-watchful presence which gives them greater strength, they are more resistant to diseases, for that is what the Light accomplishes: it nurtures and emboldens the warmth of life.

Truly, someone like that would become a paragon of the Light over time, without the need of any ritual. After all, the ritual these Paladins take is just that: they have some priests channel Light magic onto you.

And yes, yes, this is headcanon (=I do not know if it would accomplish the same thing of the ritual) I’m simply offering an explanation to bridge two facts of the lore: that both groups, Paladins of the Silver Hand and the other Paladins, are all Paladins.

Perhaps another explanation is that this ritual isn’t important at all to become a paladin, and it’s just a thing the human paladins like to do, while what truly matters is having a connection - any strong connection - to the Light:

Tirion’s story, however, shows later that even if the power of the Light has been stripped of his body and that he could no longer use it, his connection cannot be stripped by men, as he was able to re-establish it and heal an injured Eitrigg by his desperate will to save him
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Excommunication

122

My guy. I quoted the book nearly verbatim, it’s not an interpretation.

It hinges on an assumption that you already know how the Light and wielding it functions. At no point did I claim paladins require this ritual to wield the Light, at no point did I claim it is the source of their ability to draw on the Light. I said, as the lore does, that the ritual infuses them with the very essence of the Light, turning them into the Light’s living vessel. Which is again is how Blood and Honour describes it, and not from Tirion’s perspective.

It’s an empowerment ritual, not a “here’s your powers” ritual.

Tirion manages to retrieve his ability to call on the Light, we don’t know if he ever regained that ritualistic empowerment. But that ritual is again not the source of their powers and misrepresenting my argument as such doesn’t make yours valid.

My guy. It’s a passive exposure unlike the direct empowerment Silver Hand paladins undergo via this ritual.

If this is true, what’s special about the Silver Hand? Why were these paladins needed? The Church of the Holy Light already had warrior clerics who according to this logic would be paladins.

Again. The ritual isn’t the source of their powers, it’s an empowerment.

123

So this small piece is interesting. Because in one of the pre-legion Sunwalker quests. one of the first trainers tells you that “Wielding the light will come as easy to you, as a shaman calling upon the elements”

Which might imply. and its a bit of a stretch that Sunwalkers wield the light in the same manner as shaman wield the elements. praying for aid and channelling it through themselves.

but this does go into head cannon territory a bit.

2 Likes
124

I do know, and you seem to know too, which again brings me to further question your criticism about the Sunwell and the blood elves.

Your criticism was directed at the nature of the source, claiming that the way the Sunwell works, as a source, makes their connection with the Light work in a way that doesn’t give them the properties we are told all paladins share, according to the canon. But more than that, you contrasted the Sunwell as a source with the empowering ritual of the Silver Hand which, by virtue of being there, gives the paladins a different connection to the Light:

But now, as soon as you’re pressed to state what’s so special about the ritual, here you go pointing out how the true connection between the Light and the SH paladins isn’t the ritual, but the normal workings of the Light.

See the problem? Again, the more we talk about it the more the ritual look superfluous.

So the archetype of paladinhood would not be the Paladin according to your (lorebreaking) headcanon, only a holy warrior. Yeah…

  1. The Church and the paladins have plenty of rituals of many kinds, it’s kinda their philosophy.

  2. Priests want to remain in control of the Church, it makes sense to say they are the voice of the Divine and the only ones who can grant or remove the blessings of the Light.

  3. They were fighting a war, so being blessed and empowered rather than [only] training extensively to attune to the Light makes sense

  4. Having a group in the army which has been trained extensively in both Light and martial arts is still a pretty big deal - all paladin orders in WoW are a big deal and a moment ago you were thinking they didn’t have a ritual to empower them, so…

  5. The Paladin of the Silver Hand is a powerful symbol, and from the order and its training many heroes were born. It’s a great way to boost the morale of your people.

Likely all of the above.

125

It’s just not related. The source of their ability to draw on the Light was never questioned in the first place.

But I have pointed out what’s so special about the ritual more than once? It’s a permanent power boost that literally strengthens the paladin in both body and connection to the Light.

If we are being technical? Yes. Again, calling it headcanon doesn’t make it so.

Paladins are made out to be this completely new idea but if this ritual isn’t special, what’s so special about the paladins? Holy warriors already existed.

Doesn’t say why the paladins were needed.

But they trained extensively in both matters of arms and studying the Light before undergoing the ritual.

You mean like the warrior clerics already were?

So is the Church as a whole and from the Church these warrior clerics could serve in the same role unless the ritual is not as superfluous as you headcanon it as being.

Your only source so far is the in game class. I’ve linked two books that both agree on how this ritual affects paladins of the Silver Hand. You just ignore them in favour of twisting my words into nothingness or going “It’s headcanon!”

126

The warrior clerics they speak about aren’t armored or clad in plate. They’re priests mostly seen clad in cloth.

Do we have any hint in the book that they’re actually martially trained clerics, not priests that go to war/battle in cloth?

After all, Alonsus recruited mostly trained knights except Turalyon who was a priest. The rest were already martially trained, and then were named Paladins. The notion of the martially trained priest didn’t seem to differ from Paladin given the convergence of the classes as a first step, if not the step towards becoming a paladin.

I believe the ritual is not defining any difference here other than a specific moment in which such was needed. I have not seen it being referenced in game personally.

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127

Yes, but in an inconsistent way.
Now you treat it as a standard power boost, which is a normal thing in WoW, before you treated it as a special empowering boost that is necessary to the very concept of a Paladin. You went as far as to claim that without this specific ritual you aren’t a proper Paladin, to the point that it makes all the Paladins of Silver Hand Paladins who received this ritual the only ones who have any right to be called Paladins. A far bigger deal, no?

And when pushed about what it actually is so special about it, the answers are generic and vague, like:

Which, aside from the fact we know it is not permanent (ref. Tirion) as it can be stripped away, any Light magic dude could be empowered by the Light in a similar way the more they call it onto their body, making it far from unique or special, really. Or have the same results.

In the end, it’s always the same thing: magic juice juiced them up.

Incorrect!!! There is plenty of sources. Here you go.

We have a lore entry for the blood knights:

She learned of the wizards’ achievement and volunteered to be the first … a new order was born: the Blood Knights. These renegade paladins are able to harness the sacred powers of the Alliance 's noblest heroes … Blood elf paladins have swiftly grown confident in their borrowed abilities
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Burning_Crusade_Townhall/Shamans_and_Paladins

Or the Ultimate Visual Guide, which calls the blood knights an “organization of paladins” (p.147) according to wowpedia.

Then you have short stories in which vindicators are called Paladins twice. I will quote the first time, page 3:

Maraad stood in a large circular room with glowing runes carved into the curved walls […] Surrounding them were several paladins and vindicators […] These three were the Triumvirate of the Hand—Boros, Kuros, and Aesom—and the others in the room were the draenei elite
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/story/short-story/leader-story/velen

Maraad is also called a Paladin multiple times, such as in the WoW Comic, where he is picked as the representative of the Paladin class in the New Council of Tirisfal.

And also here:

As a paladin of the Holy Light, Maraad epitomized the strong arm of righteousness.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Characters_of_Warcraft/Vindicator_Maraad

And also in another short story:

Maraad was a paladin, not a shaman, but perhaps the spirits would understand.
https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/story/short-story/destination-pandaria/untamed-valley

Vindicator Boros is also called a paladin, alongside all of the Hand of Argus:

The Hand of Argus was once a mighty order of draenei paladins dedicated to protecting their people from their Legion hunters.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Champion:_Vindicator_Boros

And I’m sure in many more.

As for in-game quests, for example:

Mathias Shaw calls a zandalari prelate “a paladin”:

Master Mathias Shaw says: A troll paladin? Now I’ve seen it all. Protest all you want, but you appear to be outnumbered.
Ra’wani Kanae says: De Light of de loa is all de strength I need. Face me!
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Champion_of_the_Light

Blood elves referring to themselves as paladins, and to Alliance’s Paladins as “false paladins”:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Paladin_Training_(Horde)
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/True_Masters_of_the_Light_(3)

But don’t take it from the blood elves, take it from Turalyon who acknowledges that Liadrin is a Paladin:

High Exarch Turalyon says: What’s this? Horde invaders, with a paladin in command? What has this world come to?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_for_Stromgarde

Dezco is also called a Paladin, here:

<Despite his words and the warmth the prince directs his way, the tauren paladin suffers distrustful glances from the royal bodyguards in the corner of the room.>
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sunwalker_Dezco

…there’s likely plenty more but I think it gets the point across.

Tirion the Cleric, am I right? Kek.

Yeah, I can’t imagine why you’d want to differentiate super-trained martial combatants from your average priest which wielded a sword. They must have been as effective in battle - Oh, wait.

The warrior clerics as you call them may be just priests who are clearly less trained than the paladins - less exercises, less rituals, less martial expertise + the whole symbolism and rankings.

128

It seems, sadly, that 10.2 will not introduce our long awaited gnome paladin possibility.

No plans for a gnome druid either. The forms could be entering a mechbear! Please blizzard, throw the gnome community a bone :sob:

3 Likes
129

True enough, it’s from a time when this setting was still much more D&D inspired so the idea that comes to mind would be D&D clerics.

You keep trying to find a gotcha moment where there’s none to be had. Nothing what I have said about this ritual has so far been contradictory, and yes, you aren’t a paladin of the Silver Hand without it.

If you want to be very uncharitable then you could also say Silver Hand paladins are the only real paladins because in the lore paladin isn’t a class, it’s a rank you hold as a member of the Silver Hand and it’s a rank you can be stripped off.

Not once did I claim it couldn’t be removed. Tirion obviously proves it can. Without any examples of this happening through merely wielding the Light it all remains headcanon.

Which is all pulled from the class of Blood Knights in game being paladin, the same applies to the Vindicators. You don’t seem to comprehend that.

Unless he underwent the ritual again.

But they do the exact same thing so just train the priests more.

130

I said inconsistent. You treat it as a necessary power boost for the identity of the Paladin class, that without it you aren’t a Paladin, but also say in the end its effects are just increasing some strength, which is all but unique. And definitely doesn’t look like a necessary requirement to be a Paladin, which is also something you haven’t elaborated upon.

No, I am sorry, but you don’t get to ignore the lore to fit your concepts. The lore states, from TBC up to recent lore, that all these cases are Paladins.

Going “oh, but they don’t mean it because it doesn’t fit my worldview, so they refer to game mechanics” isn’t a good explanation, it’s just you trying to invalidate the canon lore because you like more your lorebreaking version.

Maraad being the representative of the Paladin class in the Council of Tirisfal in a book where he teaches what it means to be a paladin isn’t really a “game mechanic”, just as all these references. Yours is a statement done in bad faith.

Also, just so you know, vindicator is a profession, not a class. There are both warriors and paladins who are vindicators, and even other classes too.

If it was true we wouldn’t have blood elves calling themselves Paladins, we wouldn’t have Turalyon calling blood knights a Paladin, Mathias Shaw calling a prelate a Paladin, draenei referring to themselves as paladins, and omniscient narrators calling these people Paladins.

Face it. This is the lore. Period.

1 Like
131

You are the only person consistently bringing class into it. You cannot respond to anything I have said here without grossly misrepresenting it.

132

I think most people here agree with that - paladins are a class.

The lore is extremely consistent there. As I said, from TBC (and arguably WoW classic) up to now paladins are always treated as a class.

Also, if they are not a class at all and only a rank, then not even the ritual would be important, only being acknowledged as paladins within the organization of the Silver Hand would matter. But this is simply not the lore we have, and the term Paladin since the second war - where humans knew of a single type of paladin - up to now has evolved to identify a type of holy knight/warrior which wields the Light. And that includes blood knights, draenei paladins, prelates, etc.

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133

I think at this point after 5 days mayhaps the conversation won’t get anywhere because Alannyse just has a very, very different interpretation of what a Paladin is, the Light and the overall lore than the rest of the thread.

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134

And the point of the thread wasn’t to “Aschshually they’re not paladins”, but to cover the potential archetypes that could relate to the paladin gameplay.

Delving into the Silver Hand conversation is not useful for the entirety of the post. It has definitely kept it active, I guess.

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135

Fair point, I will stop detailing the thread.

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136

I don’t know about you bloke, but I’m a Blood Knight, none of this Paladin nonsense.

137 
https://x.com/Portergauge/status/1702768749684941175?s=20

Here they come, oh lord…

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138

I am all for this!

139

The return of the Legion Paladin Order Hall in an image…

Pain.

140

I am scared and in pain.

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