Pay to win is rampant

[Álaric-mirage-raceway]

I think the best thing for me is to place you on ignore as you go out of your way to say different in every single post.
The point i was making was the difference between the fights and the ramp up but everything is always so easy for you and always easy for you to get into groups blalblalalalaala.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

@Álaric-mirage-raceway

The point i was making was the difference between the fights

Oh in the context of specifically compared to EN, absolutely. But heroic has still seen consistent pugs every patch.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

And the overarching point being that lower complexity and lesser challenge makes the raids more accessible and doable to a broader audience, which then has the adverse effect of decreasing the demand for boosting.

Obviously if everything was LFR difficulty there would be no boosting. But at the same time, if there were no tiers of difficulty there would be no game either. Some people get bored in LFR you know… And those people also need a place to “live” and have fun.

But either way I think you are assessing the demand for boosting from the wrong angle. Its not about difficulty. Its about logistics.

Most of the people that buy the service have the skill necessary to kill it for themselves. What they dont have is (A) playtime to gear up the toon (B) patience/want to organize with 20 other people (C) patience to join/create a PuG group.

And that is why boosting existed in Vanilla as well. Because people do not want to connect at X time for Y hours to go with an organized group. And even if they did, they don’t want to go through the progression path ALL organized (and Pug) groups have to go through.

So basically. In ALL of WoWs history people have the following option:

• Prepare your toon. Look for a guild/PuG. Join. Get along with people. Go to the raid at Y time X day. Progress together ect…

OR

• Pay some dude 400kg and get the raid done in 1h.

That is 99% of the boosting demand right there. For Raids.

For M+ its similar as well. People complain about not being able to join groups. But to get “instant invites” you have to do some socialization, you have to take care of your toon and progress through ilvl, you have to progress through RIO one key level at a time… Learn all the mechanics… ect…

OR… just pay some dude to take your naked toon through a +10 in 15 minutes.

Its not that they cant do it. Its just that they dont want to go through all that process. But again. What is the alternative here ? Send gear through the mail ? If there is no “progression” system to play, then why play at all ?

[Blakout-ashbringer]

@Uda-uldum

What they dont have is (A) playtime

You make a lot of sense honestly.

This is very true. M+ is very successful because it allows that flexibility for people who can’t or don’t want to commit to organised raiding.

I think that the WoW population has aged considerably and the time they’re willing to invest in the game reduced dramatically.

Boosting has become increasingly popular and now that we have legal RMT it’s never been easier.

For me, the best change they made to the game is the catalyst and I know it’s been a great QoL for many like me.

[Uda-uldum]

@Blakout-ashbringer

You make a lot of sense honestly.

This is very true. M+ is very successful because it allows that flexibility for people who can’t or don’t want to commit to organised raiding.

I think that the WoW population has aged considerably and the time they’re willing to invest in the game reduced dramatically.

Boosting has become increasingly popular and now that we have legal RMT it’s never been easier.

For me, the best change they made to the game is the catalyst and I know it’s been a great QoL for many like me.

And that is why Boosting will never go away. And it has always existed. There is nothing blizzard can do about it except pulling the plug and shutting down WoW.

Because if you think about it, even in M+ that is supposed to be “flexible” has boosting.

Thing is. Blizzard makes a game with the intention that you spend your time playing it. So it has to put things in the game that takes time to accomplish. They need to give you reasons to connect day after day.

So if you make a game like that there will ALWAYS be people that want to take short cuts. So boosting will always exist.

Its pointless to complain about its existence. All we can do is make peace with its existence.

[Blakout-ashbringer]

@Uda-uldum

So it has to put things in the game that takes time to accomplish. They need to give you reasons to connect day after day.

They also have to give different levels of difficulty to accommodate as many players as possible, understandable.

@Uda-uldum

Its pointless to complain about its existence. All we can do is make peace with its existence.

You’re right, boosting wouldn’t exist if there wasn’t a flourishing market for it. The demand is there so it’s not going anywhere.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Uda-uldum

And that is why Boosting will never go away.

I don’t think anyone will disagree with that.

My assessment, like the OP, is simply that it has increased in popularity over the years, and that it continues to do so.

And my own take on that is that the proliferation and normalization of gold buying through the WoW Token has a lot to do with that.

But also that the core reason for it, is that the game is just too hard.
Blizzard simply designs raids and dungeons to be way too hard for the playerbase as a whole.
And I would argue that doing so doesn’t serve the game well.

The strength of an MMO isn’t to cater to a niche of skilled players and encourage selective grouping and generally have a game experience where players experience a lot of failure.
Rather than that, an MMO ought to have a very low difficulty overall in order to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players who can play together regardless of background, and who can have positive game experiences of success together in settings that allow for casual socialization.

If the success of Classic has shown me anything, it is that players have a better experience grouping up randomly for Molten Core and just blasting through the raid in a chill and relaxed manner where everyone has a good time and there’s room to talk and success is all but guaranteed, and most players get some sweet loot out of it.

That’s really the strength of an MMO.

This ongoing trend of Blizzard making things increasingly more complex and challenging and emphasizing difficulty progression and catering to an audience of hardcore players and other tryhards seems like the opposite of what the game should be.

And the boosting comes as a consequence of it.

In my opinion.

[Beerwolf-sunstrider (Beerwolf)]

WTB Elite PvP gear and mount pl0x

[Dungone-doomhammer]

@Uda-uldum

That is not the definition of P2W by the way.

If it was, you have to explain what you would call other games like APB Reloaded, Archeage, or Diablo Immortal.

You cant have the same defenition of both. That would be like calling a plant in a pot a “forest”.

What are you saying? That you don’t get plants in a forest?

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Jito-turalyon

I wouldn’t say that.

I think the PuG scene was thriving back in Legion, in part because Blizzard designed and tuned most of the encounters to be rather simplistic and pretty forgiving.

Wdym? Legion had many PuG-breakers, Mistress, Maiden, Avatar, KJ, Coven, Agra, Argus and thats from only the last 2 raids.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

My assessment, like the OP, is simply that it has increased in popularity over the years, and that it continues to do so.

It did not become more popular. It became more visible.

There is as much Boosting as in the past. The only difference is that the gold people used to buy illegally can be bought legally now. And illegal sellers that under-cut the token have become orders of magnitude more convenient and harder to catch today than they were in the past. You add that boosting for gold became legal and voila !

What people used to do in the shadows now they do in open daylight. Creating the illusion that boosting has increased.

@Jito-turalyon

But also that the core reason for it, is that the game is just too hard.
Blizzard simply designs raids and dungeons to be way too hard for the playerbase as a whole.
And I would argue that doing so doesn’t serve the game well.

No. Raids are not harder.

There used to be a single Raid difficulty. Take it or leave it. Now. You got multiple ones. LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic. And you got resets every season. You dont have the situation of Vanilla where you have to gear up in MC to attempt Naxramas raid.

WoW has never been as convenient and “casual friendly” as it is today. Ever. In the history of wow. And compared to other MMOs, WoW still is the most casual friendly one there is. Measured from any possible metric.

And not only Raids. Its the same fact for any other form of content in WoW.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Amonet-ravencrest

Wdym? Legion had many PuG-breakers

I don’t think so. There was 40(?) bosses in Legion across 5 raids.
Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold didn’t really have any bosses that were problematic for PuGs on Normal and Heroic.
You’re right that Tomb of Sargeras and Antorus, the Burning Throne has more, and the difficulty and complexity definitely ramps up there.
But compare that to Battle for Azeroth where Uldir is way less approachable than Emerald Nightmare.
Same with Battle of Dazar’alor versus Nighthold. It just gets that extra tic up in difficulty and complexity.

And my point is that it ultimately doesn’t serve the game very well to have a level of difficulty and complexity that is so high. It encourages boosting and it ultimately alienates the playerbase.
The game does better, as a whole, whenever it leans toward a simpler and easier game experience.

Inherently the strength of MMOs isn’t difficult and complex group content for serious players. If it was, then Wildstar would have been a success.
The strength of MMOs is the epicness of the content and the social experience of having a good time with all kinds of different players in a setting that is enjoyable and rewarding and where you share success and good times together.
And somewhere along the way, Blizzard have lost sight of that.

@Uda-uldum

There is as much Boosting as in the past.

I’m going to flat out disagree with that. If your assessment is that the boosting industry has been stagnant for countless years and that the business hasn’t grown, then you and I are at polar opposites here. So agree to disagree.

@Uda-uldum

No. Raids are not harder.

Same here. We’re going to disagree strongly. Again, agree to disagree.

[Uda-uldum]

@Dungone-doomhammer

What are you saying? That you don’t get plants in a forest?

So what you are saying is that because there are plants in a forest, any collection of plants is also a forest? So a field of wheat is also a forest? A strawberry farm is also a forest ?

Its not rocket science my friend.

[Dungone-doomhammer]

@Uda-uldum

So what you are saying is that because there are plants in a forest, any collection of plants is also a forest? So a field of wheat is also a forest? A strawberry farm is also a forest ?

You mentioned forests not me. I am not making any comments about a forest at all. I am saying Wow is P2w.

Ask yourself what the biggest prize is within Wow. I would argue world first has to be at the top of that lists.
If you agree with this statement, then are you seriously going to argue that the world first guilds do not buy gold to enable an advantage?

[Keento-argent-dawn]

@Dungone-doomhammer

Ask yourself what the biggest prize is within Wow. I would argue world first has to be at the top of that lists.
If you agree with this statement, then are you seriously going to argue that the world first guilds do not buy gold to enable an advantage?

Brah…
You’re not even in the same league as World First Guilds.
And that’s a pretty bold accusation to make.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

I’m going to flat out disagree with that. If your assessment is that the boosting industry has been stagnant for countless years and that the business hasn’t grown, then you and I are at polar opposites here. So agree to disagree.

I did not say that.

What I said is that you are deliberately ignoring a very important factor. Which is legality.

You said there is more boosting now than in the past. The answer is that there is not. There is just as much.

I know. Because I lived it. Im not guessing or hypothesizing anything here. I got filthy rich in WotlK from doing this. So you can disagree all you want. All my clients in 2009 say otherwise.

I used to sell:

• Immortal achievement in Nax
• ICC25HC and normal + achievements.
• Colosseum HC. Plus the achievement at the end.

Those were the best sellers. So now you know what I used to do 15 years ago. And part of the profits got me through college. Fortunately, I don’t do any of that for 10 years now.

But hey. Maybe there is more boosting. And if that is the case, its because now you can do it with out getting banned. So people that would have payed me 15 years ago but did not out of fear of getting banned… would do so today.

Still nothing to do with raid difficulty. Its 100% due to convenience.

@Jito-turalyon

Same here. We’re going to disagree strongly. Again, agree to disagree.

There is no way you can claim that LFR is harder than anything. Or Normal mode.

Those did not exist for most of wow’s history. So I dont know why you somehow disagree with this.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Jito-turalyon

Ergo Blizzard can design their way out of a boosting-driven raid scene if they want to. But evidently the interests of the high-end raiding guilds (and WoW Token sales) weigh heavier on Blizzard’s minds than the PuG environment.
I mean, the Silken Court and Ansurek are not made to cater to the interests of PuGs. They’re made for Echo and Liquid and Method.

So TL:DR Blizzard needs to design raids so that even drunk Timmy who is halfway watching the TV to watch the PC monitor to avoid standing in fire, can get get his Curve if not CE? Otherwise drunk Timmy might buy a boost instead?

Oh boy. Whats next? Blizzard helping to clean yourself up after a break because some people might not be even able to do that and Blizzard needs to take care of them as well?

[Uda-uldum]

@Dungone-doomhammer

You mentioned forests not me. I am not making any comments about a forest at all. I am saying Wow is P2w.

Ask yourself what the biggest prize is within Wow. I would argue world first has to be at the top of that lists.
If you agree with this statement, then are you seriously going to argue that the world first guilds do not buy gold to enable an advantage?

My biggest prize is not the same for others. And that is my point here. You cant call wow P2W because the “win” is not the same for everyone.

And that is where the “plants and forest” analogy comes in. You cant define P2W if it applies to everything, or some things only.

P2W is defined as : Using RW money to buy player power that is otherwise impossible to acheive. And why player power you ask ?

Because as many of our fellow posters here said, you might boost yourself to CE in the Raid. But even though you got the prize you still play bad (compared to the people that boosted you).

Unlike REAL P2W situations. Where by the small price of 90E you can buy a sword that allows you to 1-shot mythic raid bosses (for example). So for 90E you get a toon with equivalent power as someone with top#1 skill.

THAT is P2W. That is how P2W is DEFINED in the gaming industry. Just google it for gods sake:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/p2w

Advantage in PERFORMANCE. Not in results.

And fortunately, YOU don’t get to re-define the English language to fit your agenda. Definitions are imposed to you. You don’t impose them on others.

And by the Cambridge definition (or if you dont like it, google “what is a P2W game?” and choose any other result in the first 100 pages)… WoW is NOT P2W.

[Amonet-ravencrest]

@Jito-turalyon

Emerald Nightmare and Nighthold didn’t really have any bosses that were problematic for PuGs on Normal and Heroic.

Nighthold- Astromancer

Uldir - Zul and G’hun

BfDA - Mecha and Jaina

Nya - Drest, Ill and N’zoth

VoTI- only Raz

AtSC - Nelt, Zskarn and Sark

AtDH - None

NP - Court (questionable) and Queen.

[Dungone-doomhammer]

@Keento-argent-dawn

Brah…
You’re not even in the same league as World First Guilds.
And that’s a pretty bold accusation to make.

when you have to resort to insults then you are admitting that you have no argument.

I would never profess to spending huge amounts of real world cash trying to compete with world first. These are guilds who receive massive sponsorships to fulfil a task. The idea that you think anyone can compete on an individual level is farcical.

Do I think there are people within those ranks who are more intelligent than I am or better players. Without a doubt yes. But no one is a master of all trades. We all have our little niche areas. Mine is recognising that Wow is P2w and I have yet to see a credible argument that deflects that.