Pay to win is rampant

[Gorrak-ragnaros]

All those who claim wow is p2w, i recommend to check other mmos like:

Lotro
Allods online
Swtor (cartel market item to equip purple gear).

Then come back to wow and compare it.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Keento-argent-dawn

And that’s a pretty bold accusation to make.

But that’s not an accusation. The top guilds themselves have published the gold costs of World Firsts numerous times.
Random Wowhead article:
The Cost of World First - Gold Spent During the Sepulcher of the First Ones Race - Wowhead News

@Uda-uldum

You said there is more boosting now than in the past. The answer is that there is not. There is just as much.

Disagree still. You’re repeating yourself and you don’t have to.

I’ll make the small amendment to what I said, which is proportionality. Because Retail WoW has less players now than in the past, so in terms of sheer volume of boost runs it may not have grown, but in terms of the percentage of players who engage in boosting it definitely has. It’s way more common today for players to engage in boosting, even if there are fewer players in total.

@Uda-uldum

There is no way you can claim that LFR is harder than anything. Or Normal mode.

I would certainly make the claim that where WoW started with Molten Core and Karazhan and so on, there’s a pretty stark contrast to modern encounters that have a lot more complexity and difficulty of execution to them. That also applies to LFR.
Players get through LFR because it’s forgiving and because they tend to overgear it, not because they find the complexity easy or because they execute the encounters without flaw.

@Lynlia-silvermoon

So TL:DR Blizzard needs to design raids so that even drunk Timmy who is halfway watching the TV to watch the PC monitor to avoid standing in fire, can get get his Curve if not CE? Otherwise drunk Timmy might buy a boost instead?

No. That train has left the station long ago and Retail WoW has cut its playerbase down to its remaining core audience which is cultivated around serious players with a somewhat hardcore mindset (or a wannabe one). The result you get is one part of the playerbase excelling at the psycho difficult content, and the other part of the playerbase struggling but wanting to do the same.

And that’s fine. It’s a game. And it’s for some players, evidently.
But it’s not a popular game anymore. It’s not an attractive game for gamers. It’s not accessible to the masses.
And again, that’s fine. Blizzard have evolved the game in the direction they’re hopefully happy with. I just think it was the wrong direction to take.
The game should never have gotten harder or more complex than what it was in WotLK…and even that might have been a tad over the top. In my opinion.

[Uda-uldum]

@Dungone-doomhammer

If you agree with this statement, then are you seriously going to argue that the world first guilds do not buy gold to enable an advantage?

The advantage those guilds have is not gold. And if you think that is the case you are delusional.

The advantage they have is (A) The best internet connections ever. (B) The best computers ever. With 12 button mouses and what not (C) A space to sit toguether and coordinate IN PERSON (D) a whole team of people that analize all the data, make custom WA, code stuff for them, COOK for them, clean their room and house for them …

So yes. They have a massive advantage with respect to a “normal player”. But its not gold. Its MONEY.

You know where they get their gold for all that ? MONEY. They either buy tokens. OR… sell boosts to people afterwards. Or simply put… donations. A ton of those.

But that is not an issue. Other non-first world guilds do exactly the same as them. What makes them special as I said is MONEY. And all the real world gear and support you can buy with that.

[Dungone-doomhammer]

@Uda-uldum

My biggest prize is not the same for others. And that is my point here. You cant call wow P2W because the “win” is not the same for everyone.

So you admit that there is an element of P2W within Wow. I see no denial that top guilds use P2W to progress…

I agree that Wow is very diverse and it is not P2W across all areas. But P2W permeates across a broad cross section of the game. So much so that the developers themselves are designing systems within the game that lean on buying tokens to progress. You only have to look at professions to see what they did there. Professions were a thing you did over a few days to get out of the way. Now it is a perpetual grind. One where you either have to farm or buy mats to complete the weeklies. This has pushed AH prices through the roof with consumables.

All this while gold earning potential from playing the game has bottomed out to the lowest I have seen it for many expansions.

[Dungone-doomhammer]

So money plays a major role within the game. Come on man, get a grip.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

Disagree still. You’re repeating yourself and you don’t have to.

I’ll make the small amendment to what I said, which is proportionality. Because Retail WoW has less players now than in the past, so in terms of sheer volume of boost runs it may not have grown, but in terms of the percentage of players who engage in boosting it definitely has. It’s way more common today for players to engage in boosting, even if there are fewer players in total.

OK. Lets agree that there is more boosting now.

Then its because its legal to do so. Not because raids are harder. Thats the only reason.

@Jito-turalyon

I would certainly make the claim that where WoW started with Molten Core and Karazhan and so on, there’s a pretty stark contrast to modern encounters that have a lot more complexity and difficulty of execution to them. That also applies to LFR.

You are looking at MC from the eyes of a modern PC, from a modern gamer, with a modern internet connection. If you were to look at it from the perspective of someone in 2004 it would not be that hard.

Back then there used to be 1 difficulty take it or leave it. And blizzard has a problem with addons, and they have been doing more complex raid encounters. But this is a problem for the top players only.

SO, at the same time they also made more tiers. So that those that are not “top players” dont get left behind.

That is why LFR, normal and HC mode exist. Its the reason why we started with 1 difficulty and now we have 4. With different tiers of bosses as well in them.

So the answer is NO. Raids did not become harder. You simply have more options now.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

When Blizzard starts selling the bis gear in the store for IRL money I’ll start calling it P2W.

Under the loose interpretations we see today from some every game is P2W.

[Gorrak-ragnaros]

Agree, thats the point when my wow journey is over, buying the best gear which can only get via real money is the final nail for me.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Uda-uldum

OK. Lets agree that there is more boosting now.

Then its because its legal to do so. Not because raids are harder. Thats the only reason.

Well it’s always been legal to boost.

And inherently there’s nothing wrong with boosting so long as people pay for the service with gold they’ve acquired through playing the game themselves.
That maintains the game’s integrity of effort → reward.
If you put effort into earning gold in the game, then you’re free to do with that gold as you please. Including paying for a boost.
It’s fine.

The card house starts to fall apart when players can just buy the gold with real money.
Then you’re not putting any effort into earning the gold through your own gameplay, you’re just buying it with money and paying for a boost and getting the reward through no effort in the game of your own, at all.

Boosting is technically fine. It’s the gold selling that’s the real rot. It tears the design intent of the game apart.

If there was zero gold selling in WoW, then boosting would be a cool community initiative and form of service and an all-around positive addition to the game.
But when you have gold selling (be it the WoW Token or third-party sellers) it’s just pure cancer.

@Uda-uldum

So the answer is NO. Raids did not become harder. You simply have more options now.

The raids did bec…Forget it. As I said, we disagree and it’s not really a discussion I care to have again, because I recall having said all this in the past.
Agree to disagree.

[Uda-uldum]

@Dungone-doomhammer

So money plays a major role within the game. Come on man, get a grip.

Absolutely. You are 100% correct.

If I play in a 4000E custom built gaming PC with a panoramic screen and top of the line 12 button mouse I will perform better than someone that plays on a toaster PC.

But not to buy stuff in-game. To buy stuff outside the game.

Because think of the implications… that makes Counter Strike or Darktide, games that do NOT have a player economy P2W as well.

Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7xgkRwd4cR0

It makes flying in a private jet vs. commercial P2W as well. Or driving a lambourgini. What is so surprising about those things. We dont live in Soviet Russia.

So WoW is NOT P2W.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

Well it’s always been legal to boost.

False. It has been a thing for a long time. But not legal.

Not for money at-least. It has always been legal to boost your buddies if you want to. A very important loophole that has been exploited since Everquest.

@Jito-turalyon

And inherently there’s nothing wrong with boosting so long as people pay for the service with gold they’ve acquired through playing the game themselves.

We are back to the “gold buying” discussion. Well its exactly the same as the boosting one. It has always existed. It will always exist.

Because of what you say… effort —> reward. But gold selling is just a very convenient way of removing the “effort” and simply getting the reward. Its the whole point of boosting to begin with.

And that is a thing that has existed for a long time. And the only way to stop people buying gold is to simply ban gold trading, ban the AH (to remove loopholes), or remove the economy.

But if you do that, then you go back to paying real $$ with a credit card through 3rd party websites. So boosters will still exist regardless of the “gold selling” situation.

Never forget. People will buy boost with legal gold. Or illegal gold. And if they cant, they will use real $$. But they WILL get their boost.

And if you want people to stop buying gold then you have to make it so convenient and easy its not worth their $$. But then, the formula effort → reward becomes invalidated. Its a catch 22 situation that can never change. And that is why gold selling will always exist.

@Jito-turalyon

The raids did bec…Forget it. As I said, we disagree and it’s not really a discussion I care to have again, because I recall having said all this in the past.
Agree to disagree.

You can keep your false narrative if you want.

I would agree with you though in a different context. But NOT in this one.

Because you are correct. WoW has become more complex. So we can agree to that. But it has no effect on boosting and gold selling. Those have always existed. That is where I think you are wrong.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Uda-uldum

Not for money at-least.

Obviously.

So again, boosting has always been legal.

@Uda-uldum

We are back to the “gold buying” discussion. Well its exactly the same as the boosting one. It has always existed. It will always exist.

It has only been legal since – and through – the WoW Token.

So buying gold with money has been a legitimized way of playing WoW since the WoW Token was introduced. Before that it was against the rules.

@Uda-uldum

Because of what you say… effort —> reward. But gold selling is just a very convenient way of removing the “effort” and simply getting the reward. Its the whole point of boosting to begin with.

Obviously. But if there’s no gold selling, then you would have to put effort into earning the gold yourself, which is still effort – whereas simply buying the gold involves no effort at all, anywhere in the process.

@Uda-uldum

And that is a thing that has existed for a long time. And the only way to stop people buying gold is to simply ban gold trading, ban the AH (to remove loopholes), or remove the economy.

I’ve suggested that.

@Uda-uldum

But if you do that, then you go back to paying real $$ with a credit card through 3rd party websites. So boosters will still exist regardless of the “gold selling” situation.

Sure. But perfect doesn’t have to stand in the way of good.

@Uda-uldum

You can keep your false narrative if you want.

It’s an opinion. As is yours. I’m trying to have a nice tone of conversation by simply saying we can agree to disagree. You’re the one coming off as pretty hostile here.

Anyway, think I’ve had much of all this discussion a lot before, and even with the same folks, so I’ll wrap up here. Nice chat.

[Uda-uldum]

@Jito-turalyon

Anyway, think I’ve had much of all this discussion a lot before, and even with the same folks, so I’ll wrap up here. Nice chat.

Noo please…

What happened to the Jito that argued at-eternum in the old P2W post ?

You don’t want to make this a 3000 comment long golden post or what ?

[Cgg-twisting-nether]

Pay others to play game for you. Interesting playing / gaming style indeed but whatever works I quess

[Gorrak-ragnaros]

Yep, indeed strange mindset, i play the game for fun and play the game myself, or join others if group content.

These days more people simple lazy and dont want to put effort to earn rewards.

[Ellipsìs-tarren-mill]

Super mario was P2W too when I gave my cousin half of my icecream to beat a level for me.

[Gorrak-ragnaros]

Bruh you just ruined my life. Boosting wow is one thing, but even super mario!..

[Alythena-ravencrest]

I guess I should had said that when there is piloted boosts for shuffles example then its some guy with r1’s or awc backround who is playing some other guys account who doesnt really belong on the rating they are boosting and effectively are ruining the game for the rest there.

Its same in 3v3 and 2v2 boosting really as they ruin the fun and cheat the competition on the game mode by buying somebody to play with them or their account. Someone buying something from raid or m+ for mount or whatever I dont care, I only care about pvp setting being fair and that there is no cheating or people actively smurfing in lower ranks cause they are boosters or some who bought boost carry and now you have to play against two r1/awc players on trivial ratings cause of it.

They are cheating the competition on the game mode by buying somebody to play with them or their account on a rating where the booster dont really belong.

[Omnishock-mirage-raceway]

You can make your own grp nobodys got your arm up your back, most ppl who want curve are eletist grps looking for ppl who actually know what to do.

These ppl are not interested in progress ok they want a clean fast easy run.

Think about it ok you spend hours spamming then one on guy joins and constantly wipes you due to simply being boosted.

Boosting ppl shouldnt be allowed it allows unskilled or uneducated ppl tonget ahead.

Personally idc bout curve achives they were introd so that those who have them gain recognition for killing a boss b4 its nerfed, it started with the lichking back in wrath but you got a title instead.

[Teddyblinkz-doomhammer]

Refers to Dota 2. Logic now checks out.

You’re sad because of lack of money, time or skill… Now you’re trying to put a negative spin on those who do.

I don’t have time to grind for gold, so the token system appeals to me. I can’t work (60 hour weeks), look after a child, do life AND still herb/mine or whatever. So I just run keys with friends. And because we’re all average we die. A lot.

Fortunately I’m just about good enough to make it through 10’s but without the ‘money for gold’ ability I would not be able to repair, enchant, food and flask as is expected from me.

That’s ME. NOW. 10 years ago I spent hours and hours gathering and making enough in game.

Why can’t people just play their own game?

And PS: you weren’t in here complaining that people who bought boosts killed your key because they had no clue… That is actually a valid argument. People buying boosts and Io rating and then standing in everything, not knowing a single tactic… Makes me wonder about bringing Delve gear into mythic+ as well that’s another discussion though.