Player choice and diversity in the talent system

[Dorphin-argent-dawn]

In the current talent system, many spells that were once baseline are now talents, which restricts our choices. A certain number of talent points allow progression only up to a certain point, and tying tier sets to specific talents forces players into particular talent paths. This approach reduces playstyle diversity and creates an illusion of choice. Even if players try to deviate from the meta, they are often ridiculed, as the agency of their character becomes an illusion dictated by a few theorycrafters. This issue is pervasive across all levels of group content, not just high-end activities.

The current version of the beta highlights this problem. For instance, three main AoE spells for warlocks, Seed of Corruption, Rain of Fire and Implosion, are mandatory picks, as progression in the talent tree is not possible without them. My main is not a warlock and every class has a similar issue in their trees.

The design goals of class trees focusing on utility and spec trees on build diversity have also failed, especially for hybrid classes, but that is another topic for now.

Why not make these mandatory talents baseline and offer different talents in their place?

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The hero talent system coming in TWW was meant to add a new layer of customization, but they fall short. In previous expansions, we would have just gotten ten new talent points and some new talents added on top of the existing trees, but this is just marketing at its finest.

Hero talents do not enhance diversity, in fact I think they stifle it and it is another step towards choreographed gameplay. I think they should not force players into specific class/spec talents, as this defeats the purpose of providing paths and choices. They should affect baseline class spells or provide new spells, focusing on new visuals and class identity. But because there is hardly anything left that is baseline, we get this.

How can Hero Talents truly add to customization if they continue to restrict player choice?

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I propose freeing up talent points by making the first few tiers of the trees baseline, adding new fresh talents in their place and never tying tier sets to specific talents, like tier sets used to be in the past. This would create a more inclusive and engaging environment where player choice is genuinely meaningful, and the illusion of choice is eliminated to as great a degree as possible.

[Zerror-silvermoon]

I think i am not alone to say that there has been so many reworks and itterations of a class or spec every expansion. It is hard for me to point a finger when i do not know what the devs are thinking. We turn to the forums to achieve some kind of answer and hope that change can be done, but it has been years. So far it looks good that the devs are listening to feedback, but time and time again we are in a spiral of unforseen results.

Your idea if they are reading it or not, hopefully will be taken into consideration, but if they have an agenda and a solution they think will “maybe” fix the problem, all of our forum efforts will be taken as a grain of salt, unless you get thousands of likes.

I am willing to further push or vote for your idea, but there is one thing that i need to let you know. The system WoW has built in consideration to how they heal, damage and damage taken etc + the fact that we have addons into the so called “results of class and specc performance”. They and we have built this illusion that the only thing that matters is the results your damage and healing profile you achieve. Hence we have nerfs and buff and what not cause this firemage nukes mobs faster than the other specs, or this tank is unkillable.

There are solutions to everything. And i will say again “solutions”, but we cannot please everyone, hence we have different opinions.

May i add a few solutions to your post?

[Dorphin-argent-dawn]

Yeah, and we saw at times incredibly frequent blanket buffs and nerfs during DF. This is in large part because they no longer balance with modifiers in mind. They can just hotfix a 10% damage buff in March and a 25% damage nerf in September, it is easier like that.

Of course you can offer solutions. This was all just how I see it

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

In the current talent system, many spells that were once baseline are now talents, which restricts our choices.

Which I consider a good thing.

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

tying tier sets to specific talents forces players into particular talent paths.

Only if you care about that sort of thing.
I mean, sure: I liked the season 3 BM tier set bonuses the best; because the other 2 seasons were just boring and didn’t really emphasize the fantasy of BM. But never at any moment did I consider changing my talents just to accommodate those bonuses.

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

This approach reduces playstyle diversity and creates an illusion of choice.

It reduces it only for meta sheep. It only creates an illusion of choice for meta sheep.
Anyone with a free will and strong, open mind can pick anything they want/like.

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

Even if players try to deviate from the meta, they are often ridiculed

I’ve literally never had that happen (in the game - here on the forums it’s a different story, but here I’ve learned to ignore certain mindsets).

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

This issue is pervasive across all levels of group content, not just high-end activities.

That’s really not my experience at all.

I do however agree with you that Hero Talents are basically already a failed feature.
They marketed it ALL WRONG and most people got completely different expectations than what we’re realistically getting.

@Dorphin-argent-dawn

I propose freeing up talent points by making the first few tiers of the trees baseline, adding new fresh talents in their place and never tying tier sets to specific talents, like tier sets used to be in the past.

The issue with that is button bloat.
And if you want to avoid that; it should all just be passive talents and isn’t that extremely boring?

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At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what they do and how much is baseline. Because the meta sheep crowd WILL find out what works best and they WILL use that loadout.

The meta sheep will never change their behaviour. So if you don’t want to be like that; just don’t. It’s pretty easy. Break the circle.

[Zerror-silvermoon]

I do not know what is in store after these 3 saga expansions, but i personally hope for a WoW 2. Where they would take the game more seriously in the sense of no addons being implemented, but a system they deem as compentent enough to give results to match the current performance of player depending on the content they are reaching for.

A few example:

1. Replace the damage meter addon with an ingame built grading system like A to F. But results are private or can be showed to the group. If 1% or 25% of the people do 100k and i did only 60k, i would be judged due to the fact i didnt do my rotation in that moment the tank pulled that big pack of mobs. So my dps performnce went to crap, but the results shows i was active the entire time, maybe not top notch but worthy to be graded B instead of A for example. Instead of you getting messages saying you have low DPS, hence we do not want you because your not doing what should have been done. Its different with people you know and randoms, but the essense of that problem is still there for the majority. Hence if there is a game result data collector, that tracks your game progress and gives you A, B or C grading to show how good you where without looking at the numbers. You could classify grading as fallows:
   A: Outstanding in all deparments.
   B: Awsome results, and shows very good class/spec performance etc.
   C: Very good results and shows good class/spec understanding
   D: Showed good results for the group.
   E: Responded and showed group acomplishments.
   F: AFK, hardly done anything.

Point here is that elitist and metas will not matter, but an overall petformance, based on deaths, cc’s, controll, mitigation, sustain, tactics and other things that matter.

2. Like what you have mentioned with some twist here and there. Let players choose their own paths. That is what “Warcraft” should mean, the damage meters and the system they have made and the addons has kinda and restricts players choice. Imagine if the addon was not a thing. You would have tons of builds, depending on what the player want. Imagine the possiblities, but not at the current version, here it is only meta and what those big numbers are. Crafting your own setup wont hold up if you do not fallow seasonal metas etc.

3. This is something that might make people react. Yes this is a PC game with tons of buttons to press, not against it, but if they want to expand the platforms it can be played on. They need to make less buttons to press, and a set of class and spec builds with different class/specc variation builds. That suits the amount of buttons a console can handle, might be complex in a lot of ways, but that is how it is.

An example of this is LoL and DOTA, instead of 4 buttons, make it within the parameters on what a console can manage in a build where you get a guide to use spells, combos, highlighted charged spells and defensives etc. I know the hardliners of the old WoW find this offensive, but new generations are playing every year and the game needs to evolve. Instead of us getting reworks, the game could add more or different specs beyond what a class has, increases more builds and playable options, instead we are getting our classes/specc reworked everytime. To be honest just delete the class and make something else.