12 buttons?
Hpriest which is trash has more abilities from you mate… And its trash tier xD
MOBA’s where always a ready made player and you just play, wow + all mmos you grind for gear. No grind? No MMO sadly
And if content was balanced around classes having a single skill, it would make all skills worthless. But they are not for obvious reasons. Same applies to gear. If you would have no gear progression everyone would do the same thing as WF guilds.
Run the raid for 3 weeks then unsub.
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Heroes of the Storm has 3 abilities + a heroic ability. That is definitely different from our classes with 30 abilities.
12+4 on my mouse and these are only the healing abilities and not the utility ones. In m+ it is easily more than 20.
It has to do with the feel of the combat system aka “gameplay”. Having more complex character interactions than just 4 buttons makes the game more engaging for many people.
Considering you’re using a Moba (PVP game) to compare - try playing arena seriously and see how far you’ll get with 4-5 button rotations.
If you’re really pvping in WoW you have a way more buttons to press (macros and such). Granted, they used to be even more before pruning but we still have a ton more in wow than in mobas.
I mind controlled a player off the cliff in revendreth. I got no honor.
At first i was disappointed, then i realized i don t really care, i will do it again and again just for fun thinking of that poor players just arrived at the top of the elevator.
If you like the game and your character you need gear and it is fun to collect it with efforts but you get fun PER SE… definitely not fun to change gear every now and then
Funnily enough this brings us back to this thread:
which was already posted in this thread.
The argument you guys keep bringing up as to why gear is necessary for PvE basically boils down to “PvE itself is boring, thus we need a carrot on a stick to bother with it”.
PvP is self sustaining on the other hand.
Why are you dropping strawmen all over the OP to try and discredit their PoV? Just parroting “go play a MOBA” or “Go play SIMS” as if that’s some kind of credible retort to their points?
Please direct me to the part where an RPG is defined by “grinding gear”. OP hasn’t said anything about removing grinds, he’s talking about removing a part of the grind equation and replacing it with something else, and you keep harping on about irrelevant stuff like “5 buttons” or whatever.
What on earth does “grinding for stats that have a blanket effect on all chars” have to do with the core of the genre? Why could you not say replace that grind with appearances or other ways of manifesting power (like a more cohesive conduit system) as opposed to gear?
Several RPGs in history have never used gear, you’d grind stuff like “ability points” which you use to actually determine what your character can do, or how good they are at certain things they do by specific ability augments, as opposed to their kit being stagnant and only being affected by generic gear say.
The staple of the RPG genre is that my character gets more powerful as I progress them. How that progression is handled is up for debate. Gear is a common method, some RPGs use both gear and ability systems that work together (Final Fantasy console games) whereas some just use ability systems.
In WoW we have a pure gear progression system - as I get stronger, i’m not actually getting stronger, my gear is. My gear is progressing, i’m not. If i’m in a situation where my gear can’t be used, i’m back to barely being different to other members of my class if at all.
Whether you call that good progression or not is up to you but I would much rather progression moved away from being so gear centric and more towards us actually developing our character traits (and keeping them across expos). The only tricky part would be balancing “catch up” from prior expos but i’m sure a workaround could be found for that.
It’d certainly make more sense than current where I can plausibly just “Not bother” with say M+15 this season because i know next season I can jump into progression that will offer me exactly the same as the M+15 did for way less effort. If the buffs were applied to my character and not my gear, they’d be way more permanent.
They don’t even have to be stuff like power. It could be extra customisation options, outfits, spell effects. I’d love that. I mean i’m very lukewarm about gear grinding in WoW, yet i’ve religiously unlocked the AR heritage armours, because to me that’s something interesting and cool. My having 2% more crit or 10% more health…it’s not something I massively feel tbh.
This is why i’d rather progression via power by via a conduit like system with direct augments to abilities. I may not be able to feel say a 0.8% crit boost and say 22 stamina boost on a ring upgrade, but imagine if that upgrade was like “Your corruption lasts 2 sec longer” I would notice that straight up and it would increase my power and more importantly it would be tied to my class.
ATM progression for my lock and my hpala is the same. I’m just chasing “more stats”. It’s a bit boring tbh. getting new conduits is cool as is rank ups of them. More of our power growth should feel like that imo. You can easily game the haste/crit back into things with this system like with the Holy Shock conduit that buffs HS’s crit chance specifically.
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+1 I support this.
Of all the MMOs I play, WoW has the worst gearing system ever.
In Guild Wars 1 I did not have to worry about gear becoming useless in next expansion. Because expansions weren’t about gear, nor was end content. It was about your skill, your build and the way you set-up your team.
In Guild Wars 2 you hit Ascended/Legendary gear and you are DONE. No need to worry about not being accepted to end-game content, not feeling like you are falling behind. Plus you can even transfer that gear to an alt that can wear that type of armor. How awesome is that?
In SWTOR you reach max with BiS gear and you are set and ready to overcome challenges and get cosmetics and actually have FUN playing that challenge.
In WoW all you care about is gear. If boss doesn’t drop a piece of gear you need, it’s affecting you in a negative way to the point you don’t wanna raid or do M+ anymore.
Entire game is around ‘gear’ that it’s making everything else ‘unfun’.
If we had a cap on ilvl and all, then I believe the wheel could spin in a more fun direction…where raids and other content could revolve more on rewards that are to stay forever, a challenge you’d beat and be proud of and say “I did it, I did it and I am so proud of it!” not “Hey I killed a boss and got this piece of gear which I’ll replace in next content patch, yay!”
At this rate it’s pointless even chasing after gear. Why? Next expansion you’ll overcome it, why even bother?
I used to raid and do M+, but the gear chasing is a repetitive, boring and annoying grind that it totally burned me out and I see very little sense in it now.
I find myself having more fun without looking for gear…
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Everyone who mentions other MMO’s when talking about WoW should realize that WoW has 10 times more players than any other MMO and there are good reasons for that.
A normal progressions system is one of them.
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Gear is not the reason why so many stay.
WoW shares many memories, quality experience and a lot of things to do.
There’s way more casual players who don’t care about gear, than there’s ‘raiders/hardcore’ players who do.
A fellow raider friend of mine quit in Shadowlands now because he’s sick of gear grinding. He could not commit to it fully due to a job, now he’s not being accepted anywhere, not even by guildies…simply because his ilvl is too low now.
It’s really fun isn’t it?
That’s why i’m stilling rocking my Challenge Conqueror: Gold set from MoP, still the best looking set, and it was pain to achieve since you couldn’t outgear it as your gear scaled down, the mobs scaled up, and the timer got tighter with each tier. We’re talking 11 and 12 min runs here for gold, man was that a rush!
This is basically what M+ was designed after, except in M+ you can actually out gear the key master achievement.
For this season i’m just doing it for the mount, if it was ugly i would’ve just done 14s for vault and nothing more. But ofc I’m not for removing gear, gear progression makes you feel powerful, it gives a sense of purpose to the game.
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And my guild took 3 170ilvl player to raid yesterday because we are not jerks. Maybe he should have kept looking instead of quiting.
That’s just a blatant lie. WoW doesn’t have many more players than the 2nd and 3rd most popular MMO have combined.
Granted it’s still double as popular as those - 10 times more is just an unsustainable exaggeration.
Your guild is one of the few for sure.
That’s the whole problem about WoW. Gear.
I named other MMOs purposely because they do have better gearing than WoW.
WoW offers more content in general than all those MMOs, but I feel WoW has the worst character progression of all MMOs (that’s just my opinion).
God forbid you wanna make your alts useful in this game…or play another class.
EDIT: Shadowlands does not offer any content for players who don’t raid or do M+. There’s very little to be done in open world…so naturally, this expansion falls behind the MMOs I named which offer a more quality open world experience.
They do not have better gearing, they have different gearing. You prefer them, but I quit SWTOR because of gearing.
WoW was all about raiding since TBC. Shadowlands changed nothing.
Opinions 
I prefer being done with gear on my character. Achieving completion and feeling like I can relax and do other things than gearing.
No it was not.
The world felt alive, huge, vast and you could roam around without feeling pressured by the things that got put in game now.
Professions had a meaning, open world had a meaning, you felt like you were in a living and breathing world, unlike now.
Look for another MMO then, instead of ruining what the majority likes.
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I’m definitely going to listen to the advice of ‘majority’ that is yourself and go play another MMO. Thank you for advice, I had no idea I should do that!
Do people really enjoy it though? All I hear on forums is people complaining about some kind of gearing issues.
Not enough drops.
Not able to achieve enough ilvl through m+.
Not getting into groups because my gear is not good enough.
To me sometimes it feels like people just think they like the idea of farming gear because… that’s what it always has been like.
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