Because instead of forcing everyone to do those idiotic dungeons, only the players who actually genuinely like doing them would? Then sorry mate, but it means it’s a crap feature to begin with, supported only by an over the top reward system and nothing more.
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Yeah i dont get whats bad about having it be seperation OPTION in place of Raiding or PvP. and only having people be there Cause they want to do M+.
Unlike say legion Evryone had to do M+ cause of Legiondaries and AP.
And if its cause wouldn last as long as titanforge. Well could add system like old valor for upgrades to allow further pushing.
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As long as my ilvl isn’t lower than a heroic raiders I’m gucci.
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M+ was better for gearing than mythic raiding with it’s unlimited runs. It’s just equalizes the field, M+ will be spammable where mythic raiding will just have 1 eligable kill a week but higher IL. People in the guild only ran it for forges moment they were geared they stopped logging and only showed up for progress nights. Yes very populair under progression raiders, they really enjoyed it!
Now only the people who really want to get high score will run these constantly every waking moment beyond a weekly +10. Battle Pet system is dying out aswell, hardly see anybody doing them. Shall we tie legendray cloak progerssion to it? Or just leave it alone and let the people who enjoy it no matter what keep doing it. the only time this expac I saw people activly doing them was when they tied Nazjatar and Mechagon rep to the dailies, to speed up getting flying.
What Redoctober said:
Running speedruns (that’s just what M+ is…) is only fun when there is no pressure or a quarenteed reward (the bronze drake mount in Stratholme), in M+ you constantly have that clock visable and ticking.
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And where should i gear for Pvp Mr MyThIc RaIdEr, actually i still dont enjoy the fact that i need to do pve for pvp gear but still m+ is better than joining guild and raid mythic then doing pvp.
Did someone checked what weekly rewards? It should be always-corrupted item, maybe of medium to high tier of corruption. The positive effects if matching you class may be worth many ilvl just like benthic gear or way better.
I geared a lot from weekly in Legion and BfA but looking on the system from the side it’s kind of really bad. One M+ run a week for high tier reward. It’s a free loot for being subscribed and it’s not related to how good or dedicated to M+ you are.
There should be a pvp vendor and separated gear, they simply dropped the ball massively on pvp and they have no clue how to fix it.
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Tough dilemma, without tf m+ progress will be for players with mythic raid gear only. It’s already largely so because of much better trinkets and azerite tho. With tf it’s farmable best gear. Limited access to best ilvl might solve this. Weekly chest on pair with mythic raid or some sort of weekly lockouts with increased ilvl from each dungeons for first run or something like that.
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It is farmable? How many runs should you do for a 445 piece? I still have non from a dungeon itself. As far as I know you gear by the weekly m+ chest 
M+ is just a challenge.
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I’d argue that the average player that can’t get into mythic raids isn’t going to do 10’s in time too for a 440 item.
Yeah, sure some items can war and titanforge but the chances are slim and whenever I see a player that only does heroic, he almost always is stuck at around 430 itemlevel too.
So I wonder if you are just bitter, did not actually do some research or are your real ingame experiences so much different? If they are different, can you give a couple of examples?
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Just like the old proiving grounds were - to get top list there you had to get raid gear, whereas in current M+ you see a lot of dedicated players. This is going to change now. And so we go back to the old raid gear-carries-progress part instead environment you compete carrying the progress.
I would take only mythic+ tier sets better than having TF in the game anymore.
Blizzard is catering cloth, mail, plate and leather into standalone sets which doesn’t have deeper effect, no color, no art and no taste.
This has to be addressed as in mmo it is very important to keep class identity with class based sets.
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With 200-odd guilds clearing Mythic four months after the release of the tier it’s heart warming how deeply concerned a few people are about M+ (which is accessible to all players) having a low chance of dropping high ilvl items.
I find it hypocrisy at its finest that some people would argue that those who want loot, in a loot based game, are scrubs or whatever.
Personally I’ve ran over 130 10+ runs this patch on my main alone and I still have 5 items below 445, which is below baseline Mythic raiding level.
Whatever.
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But for real. How is TF needed? I am pushing M+ every week and am now at 15-16-17’s. Without any titanforged item With a complete non-meta group.
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So you’re using all 430s+ 3x Azerite 450?
I’m sorry but I find that hard to believe. It might be so, but again I’m skeptical
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Weekly M+ chest is 440 base ilvl 
and I am 441 now.
Edit: You are probably most interested in this;
https://raider.io/characters/eu/argent-dawn/psjohly
Every 440+ item is from the weekly chest.
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TF helps people, who are not as good as method and co, to gain power to kill bosses in raids. And makes farm runs a bit less boring too.
As for M+ itself TF is needed to lure better players to hunt TFs so you could get better quality groups. I have not done a single key push attempts, and I still do 17s, but take away m+ gear bonuses, I can list bundle of people, who no longer would clutter M+ ladders. I would be one of those.
I mainly do those to hunt upgrades, AP, residues, kill time. Without the extra chance to gain bonus for my raid progress, I have no point doing anything any more on my better geared characters since I cannot care less of ‘pushing keys’ (likely many people would just get achievement and be over and done with)
And I have this feeling that M+ popularity and quality with it would lower. So you would have 2 camps left - the ones pushing keys - seeking challenge, and the alts and whatnots trying to get some entry level gear. The mid-range would diminish greatly on popularity.
And down side would be that M+ key pushing are done by mythic raiders leaving dedicated M+ players on disadvantage.
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I am however annoyed by the fact that Mythic raiders will do insanely better than me in M+ simply because they raid Mythic which is an entirely different scene that needs a different kind of skillset.
This simply means that I probably will no longer be able to do m+20s or will have to insanely work hard by only doing M+ content, not because of skill as a constraint, rather gear. 15 ilvl is a huge difference, and since it’s going back to the old system with no wf/tf it means raiders will be decked in full mythic gear midseason, if I remember correctly it took me about 2-3 months of SoO to get the maximum attainable ilvl in the game.
15 ilvl difference is huge in the game, if I remember correctly the devs stated its a 30% power increase, and if some class happened to have a niche/playstyle only achievable once they reach certain stats, 40% crit+ or 40%+ haste and those stats are only reachable doing Mythic raiding then yeah it ruins it even more.
Now don’t get me wrong, I love mythic raiding, I just don’t find it difficult enough / interesting enough / and I don’t have the time to do it hence I quit the game, but with the introduction of M+ I no longer need to raid and so I am playing the game again.
I do hope this doesn’t turn back into a raid or die situation, alternate progression paths are fun and should be a thing.
On my rogue the dps difference between me and normal geared rogues were about 50%+ back in MoP if not even more since I’m relying on memory here.
If blizzard is going to remove the WF/TF system, they should increase ilvl of m+15 or m+20 or just add a M+ only benefits from M+ gear so us M+ enthusiasts can actually enjoy the game.
M+ gear should be better in M+ and Mythic gear should be better in Mythic raiding.
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Yeah right cause the difference between timing a +15 is getting a 445 titanforged instead of 430… whoever thought timing a +15 needed teamwork, cooperation, interupts and stuns? Noobs…
Spoiler Alert: Tyranical mechanics still oneshot you on 445 Ttitanforged gear same as 430… shhhhh
I know what you say, but I am not seeing the availability of farming TF’s. I have done a good amount of dungeons I suppose and I don’t have any 445 from a dungeon run itself. It all comes from the weekly chest And I haven’t seen a resource that blizzard wants to take that chest away from us.